serene | (no subject)

I love that article. Always worth reading again. And, yeah - guilty as charged.

I recently ran across the term "mansplaining". :)

I agree with the author that men are more likely than women to hold forth on things they really don't know anything about, but in my experience, "educated" women are also likely to do this to women, and sometimes men, they perceive as less educated and/or intelligent than themselves. So my theory is that people in general tend to do this to people they perceive as less educated and/or intelligent than themselves and that men generally perceive more people--and especially women--as being such.

I agree... (*wince*) I myself have been guilty of this phenomenon plenty of times. As I said below, my kids have become pretty adept at derailing my lectures, but I need to constantly be aware of my propensity to hold forth (whether or not I know anything about the subject at hand). I think it's a low-esteem defensive mechanism (see? I know so much! I must be a valuable and important person!).

Thanks for bringing this up. It's definitely something I need to keep working on.

men
generally perceive more people--and especially women--as being such.

Well, that's kinda the point, no?

My father is like that. He doesn't care if the audience is men, women, or children. As long as they allow him to have the role of "He who gives knowledge". And 99% of the time, the knowledge he gives did not come from years of effort by him, but something he passively acquired by watching the Discover channel on TV.

It's as if other people only exist for pontificators to bolster their egos by spewing words at people.

I am guessing that it might be boiled down to the difference between *asking* to have someone explain something to you, and having someone that is insecure about the size of their... intellect... try to tell you something you didn't ask to know. Some people with no social skills confuse talking *at* someone with actually having a conversation...

That said, it should be noted that this is not necessarily a matter of male privelege... my mother for example will go on to explain all about the Christian bible to me and how I am going to hell - without my asking for her opinion on the subject - despite the fact that I have five graduate degrees in Theology, and am fluent in the original languages the book was written in.

I think it is a matter of respect, and as soon as you go into an encounter with someone you have decided is your intellectual subordinate, you have already lost the game...

Hmmm, yeah, the attitudes of parents....

My parents first knew me as a helpless infant pooping my diaper. But they shouldn't still think of me in those terms now that I'm an adult.

(I will try to remember this with my own kid, and treat him with respect as he grows beyond being in diapers.)

I'm seeing myself in these comments already as the mother of a 5 year old. I can see in her expression sometimes that I'm explaining things she already knows. There's a lot she doesn't know, though, so it's interesting territory. I think I'll keep respect in mind.

Oh, it's a back-and-forth! And I guess that it always will be. :)

Our first little one is 21 months, so we still have the 5-year-old time you describe ahead of us.

Ha! Yes, I have a theory that we always think of people as the age they were when we met them. This presents a fairly obvious problem with parents. :)

Reminds me of this saying I read once: "A Jewish man is a 13 year old boy until the day his parents die." (Although I came across this saying in a story about Jewish American culture, I think it applies to many families in many cultures.)

I used to say that my mother had installed The Portal in her house. You know the one I mean -- The Portal that turns adult children into thirteen-year-olds?

(Fortunately, I was subsequently able to uninstall The Portal, at least as it applies to me.)

My mother treated us all as adults um. More or less when we became legal adults; it was probably actually tied to when we left school, though.

I realised recently that my gut-level delineator for when people are obviously "grownups" corresponds to "the age my parents were when they had me".

Then I wish that I could regularly reset my stale assumptions of who someone is, by somehow opening my eyes and meeting them for the first time again. If that makes any sense?

This has become the crux of our homeschooling philosophy. The day my 8-month-old son, after I wondered aloud where his shoes were, came crawling out of his room purposefully towards me with one clutched in his tiny fist was the day a brilliant light filled my brain: this little critter not only could understand me, but actually solved a problem for me that I myself couldn't solve! It was a blinding revelation that changed forever how I approached my children, and I think the attitude shift has served me... and them... well.

Not to say that I don't pontificate, but they are pretty good at letting me know when I go into unnecessary lecture mode.

That's a neat story.

But see, the point is that women are not men's children, for the most part.

Absolutely.

I was just wandering off-topic to muse about how parents sometimes treat their kids.

I think that you're missing the element of default here. By default, most men assume most women won't understand difficult things.

Unless the man explains them HIMSELF, clearly enough for the woman to understand. And, of course, at length.

In this situation, why couldn't the man just ask, "Do you want me to explain this in depth? If you already understand this difficult topic, we can skip this subject for a more interesting conversation."

I would guess that it wouldn't occur to them to even ask because they don't really care what the person they are "teaching" thinks.

Yes, why couldn't he? Do you have any ideas on why that might be?

I don't think some people have the presence of mind to ask, or the ability to put themselves in another's viewpoint and ask themselves "Does this person really need/want to know?"

Also, see my above comment about how other people only exist for pontificators to bolster their egos by spewing words at them.

other people only exist for pontificators to bolster their egos

Well, yes. But given this, I don't think it's a question of them not having the presence of mind to ask whether the explanation is wanted. They don't *care* whether it's wanted; *they* want to give it, to assert their "superiority", and in my experience will do so even if the person being lectured tells them that they know this stuff already.

And the blanket assumption that a woman will *not* know about whatever-it-is already is where this becomes a feminist issue, of course.

That's something I really *don't* miss about my ex-father-in-law.

I do agree... and I do agree that that attitude is probably much more prevalent in men than women. I would suggest also that is likely just as much men being taught that they can get away with it, and women being taught that they can't.

The key is to not let them get away with it. I find a drink in the face will get that message across very quickly and unambiguously, regardless of gender.

The key is to not let them get away with it.

Actually, I think the key is for them not to do it, but since I'm not them, not letting them get away with it is sometimes the best I can do.

Yes.

It's not my responsibility to teach these folks (who are overwhelmingly men in my experience) basic social skills and how to take turns and that Women Are People Too.

It's just not.

Unfortunately, that means my choices are: avoid such critters when I find them, call them on their shit, or sit there and suffer. I tend toward avoiding them when possible, and I've left partners over this issue. I am an adult. Conversations are two way streets. I am not going to stick around to be talked AT, patronised, or ignored.

I used to try calling them on it, and it doesn't work very well for me. I regret losing the opportunity for connection with these people, but I'm not willing to put up with this. It's a sad situation for all.

But... I'm not going to call them on it, spoonfeed them how to treat Women Like People, and praise them every time they get a fraction of it right and be endlessly reassuring. I want to spend my time and energy on my own life and my own work, which I've got a ton of. I spent the first years of my life doing other people's scutwork, I'm through with it.

I'm not going to call them on it, spoonfeed them how to treat Women Like People, and praise them every time they get a fraction of it right and be endlessly reassuring.

Amen! We have enough t-shirts.

This is a good article, but I agree with a couple commenters that some women do this to other women, too. Because I don't present myself as INTELLIGENT (in an aggressive or even assertive way), "strong-minded" women like to condescend to me, even on topics like literature and history, where I know a great deal more than they do.

I think I tune it out more when men do it, because I grew up with a father who thought he was a genius and wasn't, but he never cared if I was actually listening.

My father would, if shown where he was wrong in an encyclopedia or textbook, talk about "ivory-tower academics who don't know anything about the Real World." So yeah, I get ya here.

There was some story I saw once. Where a woman stands by a car with an open hood, presumably broken. Random men folk gather. They poke at the engine, yank on the hoses, and talk down to her about carburetors. Like automotive peacocks.

But it's not even her car. She's just waiting for a bus.

Thanks for that article link!

Edited 2008-05-31 15:28 (UTC)

That was interesting. It reminded me a little of This American Life's Modern Jackass Magazine mentioned here: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1090

Like

cakmpls, I have encountered this behavior in women, too.

People do that to me all the time. To not let them is very hard to do.

I try not to do that!

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