(no subject)

[serene]

[Note: if you think the person I'm talking about is you, it probably is, but I am using your post as a springboard to talk about something I've been talking about in my own circles lately -- my response to your post was sincere, and this is where I'm putting the stuff I thought was not kind to put in your LJ.]

An LJ friend posted about zir feelings about taking communion. Zie wanted some input about the purpose of communion, and zie shared zir bad feelings about deciding whether or not to take communion. I declined to offer an opinion about the purpose of communion, and expressed sympathy for zir pain. That was sincere. What I would have said, though, had it been the time or place?

That's the purpose of communion, or at least one purpose. To make you feel bad about yourself. To remind you that god is looking inside your heart at all times, and the likelihood that you'll measure up is nearly nil. To make you look at the people around you, taking communion, and assume they're further along their walk with god than you are.

I totally respect the power of ritual, and if the ritual of communion is having the effect of reminding you to resolve your issues with your fellow humans, cool, but I don't see it having that effect in most people's lives. I see it having the effect that I believe most organized religion has on most people's lives -- that of making them feel bad about themselves, and making sure they know they don't measure up to god's standards.

I'm not convinced that people *want* religion to make them feel good about themselves, so I'm all for people using it however it works for them, and it's really not for me to decide what you get out of your religion. That said, I see so many people saying, basically, "I want to do X, which I understand I need to do to be right with god, and when I don't do X, I feel like shit," that I think it's valuable to examine whether or not X is healthy in the first place.

Comments

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

For me, it was always just a non-literal, clearly symbolic way of drawing a connection between me and God. I have heard, in adulthood, that Catholics are expected to have done confession before Communion, but I don't recall ever being taught that, or having it expected of me. When I read about others association with needing to be right, or measure up, I can't relate.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I said this in the journal in question (in response to the person encouraging me to share how I feel about the ritual), but one of my clearest memories from childhood is bawling uncontrollably before my first communion, because I knew I was supposed to be pure in some very specific way, and to have confessed all my sins beforehand, and I wasn't pure in those ways, even after having confessed, and I *knew* that if I cancelled my communion over it, I would be in HUGE trouble, so I knew that my first symbolic act as a Catholic (after my baptism at three weeks) was going to be a sham. I felt really really terrible. I have since spoken to lots of other ex-catholics who share similar stories.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

I don't know about communion but it seems like if I believed in a god, I wouldn't mind it looking in my heart. I mean of course you aren't going to compare well to a god, expecting otherwise is like watching porn and being upset because you're not hung like that. God's are supposed to be perfect, that's their job just like pornstars are supposed to have giant cocks, that's their job.

But like I said, mine is the most uninformed opinion. All I know about communion is that it's a Whitley Streiber book and I haven't even read that.

[artemii.livejournal.com]

reading posts about stuff like this always makes me so very glad my mother quit the church (and thus, i did too) when i was a fairly young child. [we were methodist, though, rather than catholic.]

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

God's are supposed to be perfect, that's their job just like pornstars are supposed to have giant cocks, that's their job.

Ah, poetry. :)

[firinel.livejournal.com]

God's are supposed to be perfect, that's their job just like pornstars are supposed to have giant cocks, that's their job.

*laughs* That's a wonderful, (perfect to my own understanding of God) analogy; yes.

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

That's the purpose of communion, or at least one purpose. To make you feel bad about yourself. To remind you that god is looking inside your heart at all times, and the likelihood that you'll measure up is nearly nil. To make you look at the people around you, taking communion, and assume they're further along their walk with god than you are.

You know, I can't see this at all. I don't see anywhere in the communion prayers anything that suggests this. I can see how it's the purpose of the confessions before communion to make you feel bad about yourself, or at least to perform enough introspection that you know whether you should be feeling bad about yourself, but that's a chore you go through before getting to the communion itself. To say that it's what communion is about is like saying that what eating dinner is about is washing your hands.

[j00j.livejournal.com]

Hm. I never quite saw communion that way. When I was more uneasy about no longer believing in god in the way that my parents and grandparents did (for the record, I was raised United Methodist), I felt uncomfortable taking communion because I felt kind of dishonest about taking part in a ritual that says "I believe x, y, and z about god and jesus." I never felt guilty in the way that you describe, though (some of this may be because the church I grew up in isn't big on guilt in general, and I never experienced communion as something structured around the confession of sins, though the liturgy does, of course, still describe the purpose of communion as being the forgiveness of sins). Most communion liturgies tend to be pretty specific about beliefs particular to the denomination in question (e.g. transubstantiation), due to all of the arguments over them. Now that I'm older and more secure in my lack of specific belief (I'm a bit of a theist, I suppose, but not a believer in organized Christianity), and perhaps also because I majored in anthropology (and at a Quaker college, at that. I should explain that Quakers are big on seeing that of god in everyone, which means that all people should be respected and valued.), I'm comfortable with taking part in the ritual on the rare occasions I go to church. I see it as a, well, communal act, one that reinforces a bond between members of a community. Eating from the same loaf and drinking from the same cup can be a pretty powerful symbol (even if it's necessarily mostly symbollic these days, due to considerations of disease, allergy, etc). But that's just how I personally experience it.

[qnetter]

Religion or no religion, I only achieve anything at all by knowing that, whatever I achieve, it is not good enough or complete enough. That is what drives me; that is what, I suspect, drives almost anyone who leads a life with direction.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

That is completely contrary to how my life works (not at all denying that that's how your life works for you). In my life, it's all about love and acceptance in the moment. My life doesn't lack direction, but I'm happy with where and how and what I am in this moment, as well.

[snippy]

Hrrm. My religious observance is about making this life (which may be the only one I have) as good as possible. To the extent religious ritual helps me achieve that, I'm doing those rituals. There's nothing in my religion about making yourself feel bad, although there is some about acknowledging the actions I've taken and the choices I've made that may have hurt others.

(Not hurting others is one of the ways of making life good.)

(It's pretty much the core, now that I think about it, and the hardest thing.)

I have the freedom not to be perfect, because it's impossible that I will ever achieve perfection. It's not even supposed to be my goal! We have a set of rules that are supposed to improve your life if you follow them. You choose your level of observance of any particular rule. I also use the "not yet" system...my observance is on the road to where I want it to be, but I'm not there yet.

[firecat]

I see it having the effect that I believe most organized religion has on most people's lives -- that of making them feel bad about themselves, and making sure they know they don't measure up to god's standards.

I don't see it this way...I mean, I think religion does have that effect on some people, but it sounds to me like you're implying that if there weren't religion, people would feel OK about themselves, and I don't think that's true. Lots of people feel they're not measuring up no matter whether they are or were involved in organized religion. Encouraging guilt is part of my culture, and while my culture is affected by organized religion, specifically Christianity, I don't think it's Christianity per se that keeps that part of my culture alive. I know plenty of currently-non-religious and never-religious people who feel they're not measuring up.

I've read stuff about how people raised Buddhist in Asia don't feel self-guilt as much as Westerners and specifically USans do. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's phat's part of the reason I think guilt is cultural and not based strictly in organized religion.

As for my datapoint, I was raised Presbyterian, and the religious rituals didn't made me feel like I didn't measure up, although I was aware they were intended to do something of the sort. I just didn't feel sinful when I was a child. The guilt I felt as an adolescent and young adult wasn't related to Christianity directly because I'd already rejected Christianity by then. It was related to all sorts of other ways that society pressures people to measure up: I felt guilty that I didn't look 'right' and that I didn't have a 'proper' monogamous relationship with a boyfriend and that I wasn't ambitious 'enough' and that to the extent I was doing things the way society approved of, it wasn't making me happy enough.

[qnetter]

Not being good enough or complete enough actually has nothing at all to do with satisfaction or happiness. By definition, if it were complete enough, I'd stop, because completion is, well, complete by definition...

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

That's one way of being. I learned a long time ago that I would never be complete and it doesn't matter. So I don't really try to be complete or good enough any more. I grow, but I'm not driven.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to add that I thought it terribly thoughtful of you to consider how your experience and views might hurt someone else.

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

though the liturgy does, of course, still describe the purpose of communion as being the forgiveness of sins

JOOI, where does it say this? The closest I can think is statements such as "this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Whenever you drink it, do this for the rememberance of me." Which, as I understand it, means that communion is for the rememberance of Jesus's blood being shed for the forgiveness of sins, not that the purpose of communion is the forgiveness of sins.

(It's possible you're not thinking of the same liturgical traditions I am, of course.)

[firinel.livejournal.com]

that is what, I suspect, drives almost anyone who leads a life with direction.

It is not what drives me. I never had a sense that I was 'not good enough'. I've had a sense that there was more out there than what I knew, and that I wanted to know it, that there was more out there than what I'd experienced, and that I wanted to experience it, but I never really thought of it as if it were a check list which I would some day complete.

It's a much more organic process for me.

[qnetter]

I never said I felt *I* wasn't good enough -- just that there's never enough knowledge or experience or good works to do.

[necturus.livejournal.com]

In our church (Episcopal), we sing:

"The bread which we break, Alleluia,
Is the communion of the body of Christ,
For though many we share one bread."

My impression is that communion is essentially unitive, somewhat like sex in marriage; it's supposed to strengthen the mutual ties that church members feel.

That said, I never take communion myself because I'm not really a Christian; I mostly go for the singing.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Herm. I don't like that, though, like serenejournal, I'm not saying it's bad for you. It'd be a bad philosophy for me to follow, and it'd be downright toxic for some other folks.

One of the stories from Buddhism that was most inspirational to me (keep in mind I don't know a lot about Buddhism) was a story about the Buddha meeting a powerful person... a king, an emperor, whatever. The king asked what it was that the Buddha had that the king did not. The Buddha asked if the king could simply sit still for a day, and be happy and content. The king responded that, yes, he could. Could he then sit still for a week and be happy? No, that was beyond his powers. The Buddha responded that he could sit still for as long as he wanted, and be content.

The story teller pointed out that the Buddha did not sit still and be content; he was very active in going from place to place to help other people. Nevertheless, he considered that a crucial part of what made Guatama the Buddha... that he'd reached completion within himself.

So, for me, my path could never be defined by incompleteness or being not-good-enough. I know that I'll never be good enough, and that my work will never be complete... but I strive to make those statements mean the same as "water is wet". In fact, I think if I had truly achieved enlightenment, if you asked "if you don't care that your work is not done, if you don't care that you have not maximized your potential, why do you work so hard?" my answer might well be "because the water is wet"... i.e. "that is simply the way of things".

Herm. But, then again, I'm weird. (Professionally, I mean. Well... amatuerly, but with Olympic-grade talent. Except that joke doesn't work any more, does it? Sigh.)

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Chuckle. While I don't personally like what you said, this is one thing that I can't deny. No, there's never enough. It's part of being human.

(At the same time, isn't it a comfort? Can you imagine just how crazy Superman would be, if he really existed? Because he was helping *these* people from an earthquake, he wasn't helping *those* people from a flood, and had no chance at all to help this other group of people who were caught in a fire....)

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i like communion. i mean, ritual cannibalism! what's not to like?

ahem. however, i am not christian, and haven't been for a while. it's just-- ritual cannibalism! way cooler than entrail divination!

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

When I heard that a maxim of Buddhism was that "life is pain", it bothered me. I thought Buddhism was a much more positive religion than that. I feel (in my unstudied way) that it *is* a positive religion, that the Buddha's message is "but we can nevertheless rise above that pain".

And then I heard that there's at least one branch of Buddhism which is opposed to happiness so as not to run counter to the "Life is pain" maxim. *ICK*. (And *ACK*, and other such things.)

I think you're right; I think too many people view religion as a source of misery, if not for themselves, then for others. I think that's wrong, in the sense that I think there's a purpose to the universe, and I think misery runs counter to that purpose.

An interesting thing: one of the biggest problems I have with Christianity is the doctrine of the Redemption. If there was evil in the world, one can't counter it by the suffering of an innocent man; after all, torturing and killing an innocent man is evil itself. If there is evil, then it must be countered with goodness, not with more evil.

That, along with the equating of belief (i.e.: parroting the magic words) with salvation, is what causes me to refuse to accept the title of Christian.

I'm not sure if this is in any way relevant to anything you said... but it's what your words stirred up in my head.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

My understanding of the "life is pain/suffering" thing is that the most standard approach is that there will, inevitably, be /some/ suffering in life, and to try to deny that is unrealistic and somewhat pointless.

And then there's more abstruse philosophy which I forget.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

I am (yet again) glad that I did not grow up Catholic (or, often, evangelical/fundamentalist), because to make yourself feel bad about yourself is not, to me, the purpose of communion, but that's what it often /becomes/ in many of those churches.

To me, and in my limited exposure to communions that don't bug the shit out of me (mostly Episcopalian), communion is almost exclusively to remind you of your connection with god, and to firm that connection up.

But then again, I'm not Christian, on purpose. So hey!

[meirion.livejournal.com]

i think that that (the "making oneself feel bad" – although i'd phrase it more as self-awareness and introspection) is what comes out of the general confession, rather than as part of the sacrament that is communion. i like the way it's done at my (usual-ish) church, where the confession is done almost as the first part of the mass, the absolution given early on, and then the rest of the mass builds towards the communion rite in the knowledge of a slate wiped clean, and (hopefully) few opportunities to commit too many further sins before communion despite their being separated by an hour or so. other churches where the confession is almost part of the communion rite do seem to make a greater link between the two sacraments, and i am less comfortable with that.

for me, the decision as to whether to take communion or not comes down to 3 things:

1) do i feel a strong faith, and have i been able to say/sing the nicene creed without feeling a hypocrite? (the only occasion when i didn't take communion for this reason was yesterday morning, although going to another church in the evening resolved my doubts, at least for the moment)
2) do i feel able to share the peace with everyone else in the church?
3) do i feel the presence of the holy spirit?

feeling "bad about myself" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. although if i'm feeling sufficiently bad about myself that the absolution hasn't sorted it out, then probably one of the first two of the above reasons applies.

-m-

[ljgeoff.livejournal.com]

When I took communion, I always felt that it was simply a taking of grace, as if I took some small part of god's love into myself. I don't go to church much anymore, and I can't really say that I'm Christian. I was raised Catholic, but I just can't follow along with the belief that Jesus was divine. Ah, well.

[ailbhe]

Heh, when I was a practising Catholic, I was pretty sure that communion was about everybody being basically good enough to have Jesus inside them (fnarr) in the most intimate communion with God possible. Um, but then, when I made my first communion, I was told that even if I'd forgotten to tell the priest a sin, confession was actually a sacrament between oneself and God, and confessing directly to God was fine.

But then, I was also aware that the final arbiter of what is or is not a sin was not a priest or a teacher, but my own conscience, according to doctrine. JPII was too. I'm not so sure about Benedict.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Wow. That is so incredibly different from my view of communion, and from anything I've ever heard taught in church. (Obviously, my background is not Catholic!)

I see a few purposes -- one is unifying, this is something we do together, all around the world. At the same time, it's a memorial -- I engage i certain behaviors as a memorial for friends who are no longer here; likewise, this is something I do as a memorial for Christ. Along with that, it is a time to reflect on Christ's life and death, and his impact on me -- just as engaging in memorial activities for caldesilk included reflecting on his life and death, and his impact on me, and I think about that everytime I put an "I remember Michael" ribbon on my badge at a con.

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

That's one of the things I admire about you. Although I try to feel good about what's going on in my life now. I don't succeed often.