and I want a pony, too (no, I don't)

[serene]

There's an abortion debate on a listserv I'm on that has, surprisingly,
stayed civil. I've just agreed with a pro-abortion(*) guy who said that
if we focus on late-term abortions, we're letting the scare tactics of the
religious right carry the debate.

My response:

In general, I have to agree with you. I am personally opposed to very-late-term abortion, but I think that the anti-abortionists (I don't think they're actually pro-life) use late-term abortion as a heartstrings-tug so that they can impose more and stricter controls on the most common abortions, those that happen early.

(Full disclosure: In my ideal world, there would be no -- or very very few -- abortions. My ideal world has free birth control, good sex ed from an early age, stigma-free access to prenatal care and adoption, and lifelong universal health care. I'm not holding my breath.)

*I say "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" because I find "pro-life" and
"pro-choice" to be so full of spin that they can't make it out of my mouth

Comments

[kightp.livejournal.com]

Your ideal world matches mine in this regard.

Until then, I remain a woman's-right-to-choose absolutist, but I can usually keep a civil tongue in my head when talking about it.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I think "a woman's-right-to-choose absolutist" describes me well, too. I am opposed to abortion on ethical grounds, I won't lie about that, but I am FAR MORE opposed to letting the government impose its wishes on women's choices in this matter. (How I used to put it is "Even if I think abortion is wrong, I don't think it's a death-penalty offense, and you're condemning women to death if you criminalize abortion.")

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's even a "spend time in jail" offense.

There are lots of things I think are ethically wrong, but I don't think most of them should be against the law.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I think we're in violent agreement here. :-)

[kightp.livejournal.com]

Imagine my surprise. (-:

[snippy]

I'm pro abortion.

I'm pro abortion because it saves women's lives, in every way you want to interpret it. Sure, I'd rather that every woman had access to alternative methods of birth control...but there are women who get pregnant on every kind except complete hysterectomy, or have truly horrible side effects, and I'm not willing to tell them to give up sex because they're different. And I'd rather that no woman's life or health were ever threatened by a pregnancy and needed an abortion, maybe even an abortion of a planned, wanted child...but that's not the way it works, not now, and not in the foreseeable future.

[leback.livejournal.com]

My perfect world has perfect birth control, and no unforeseen medical or other complications from pregnancy, and no pressures that make women choose a pregnancy that isn't right for them, and no crises that change women's minds about pregnancies they did really want. In other words, every pregnancy is genuinely wanted, and nothing happens to keep people from following through on what they want.

But my perfect world is never going to exist. So basically, I totally second what you said.

At the same time, though, "pro-abortion" can get loaded with connotations that I don't want. I've talked to people who felt that it was better, as a general rule, for women to have abortions than to have babies, and that public policy should shape incentives accordingly. I'm more of the opinion that having babies is good sometimes, and not good other times, and that public policy should aim generally at women's having more and better options, and more power to shape their own responses to those options. In that sense, "pro-choice" (for all its political loadedness) is a pretty good fit for me.

And at the same time, in seeing abortion as a valuable backup to a set of often-better options (like safe and effective birth control, good medical treatment for pregnant women who encounter complications, and adequate support for the raising of genuinely wanted children), I think that's different from how some pro-criminalization advocates paint "pro-abortion" views. Sometimes "pro-abortion" seems to mean "those folks who think abortion is just a day at the beach and should be the right answer for every woman in all kinds of situations." I think it's a critically important answer to some situations, but a second-rate or even downright bad answer to others.

Anyway, yay for civil discussions. Not easy around this issue, in my experience.

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I'm for legal, easily available abortion because all the alternatives I've heard of are worse.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Yep, me, too.

[tesseract26.livejournal.com]

when i was an intern with the feminist majority, ellie smeal told us that she says, "pro-abortion" because she thinks "pro-choice" is weak - squeamish about the reality of women's lives, staying in that "abortion is icky so we should outlaw it" idea space. for her, and many of the young women she's trained, saying "pro-abortion" is a big ol' eff you, this is reality-type move.

this left me squidging up my face in grumpiness, because good goggliocious, i'm not FOR abortion. i'm not cheerleading for it. it's a gutwrenching way to deal with a bad situation, and at best, it's a way to minimize human misery. i'm not thrilled with it, but sometimes it is the very best thing a woman can do - and that choice should absotively be left up to her. i would hope she would consult other folks involved, but the government has no business managing relationships.

having worked in and around the politics and policy of these terms for years, i've been exposed to tons of the terminology. none of it fits perfectly. i've gotten to a point where i say, "i'm for reproductive choices." that's the closest i can get to encapsualting the world you describe above. here in texas, the advocacy community tends to say things like, "abortion is a private matter that is best left to each women, her family, her doctor, and her god." which fits well with our general fuggoff-you're-not-the-boss-of-me attitude. :)