Serene of the Oakland Serenes

I knew Tim Russert. I worked with him a couple of times. I want, so much, to go to the message board and post, "Fuck you."

I won't. But I want to.

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willendorf5761.livejournal.com

Actually, a number of people over there said they found it offensive. There were also plenty of people who didn't, but it wasn't a consensus.

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Vegans have to deal with tasteless takedowns of our diet all the time, though.

Every time some nutcase malnourishes their kid on a "vegan" diet of soymilk and apple juice the media explodes with half-assed "experts" saying why no one can survive on a vegan diet, even though they are deemed safe and adequate (at least) by the American Dietetic Association for every stage of life. Oftentimes if I get sick my family has perceived it as some sort of commentary on my diet. If a guy is not "buff" and he's vegan, it's always "because" he's vegan.

Yeah, it's somewhat tasteless because this guy is dead, but plenty of dead people are exploited in every which way by the media to prove all kinds of issues one way or another, and I doubt he actually cares.

If this article actually makes somebody think, however, about the health of the standard American diet, it will have done some good. A little meat isn't going to kill anybody (except, of course, the animal, every time), but studies do show that vegetarians are far less likely to die of a heart attack or several cancers and vegans have an even lower chance of dying of these diseases.

So while I wouldn't write such an article myself, I think it's pretty mild compared to some of the really offensive crap I've seen written about vegans or the kind of stuff I have to hear about the vegan diet every day which is based in utter misinformation.

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As someone who knew Tim Russert personally, I find it utterly, utterly offensive. It's a load of shit. That vegans get a load of shit does not mitigate the tastelessness and cruelty of this... crap.

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Yeah, it's somewhat tasteless because this guy is dead, but plenty of dead people are exploited in every which way by the media to prove all kinds of issues one way or another, and I doubt he actually cares.

And with all due respect, I find this tasteless and offensive as well.

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I am sorry for your loss and I certainly didn't mean to offend you, but I do disagree with you on this issue.

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Just explain to me how others' offensiveness mitigates this. Seriously. Do you feel it's some kind of revenge? Because, honestly, I can't see any other reason why anyone could find this *okay*.

And whether he cares or not, his family and his friends do. And, just for the record, this... idiocy is so full of inaccuracies as to be bordering on libel.

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It's not that I don't think it's in poor taste. It clearly is. I just don't find it as offensive as others, or maybe I just don't find it out of the ordinary. So many worse things are done every day to people (alive and dead) and to animals, that this doesn't register very high on my radar.

Yes, it is offensive. No, two wrongs don't make a right. You and Serene do make some good points. I am sorry that you are hurting about the loss of a friend. I'm not sure why I chose to comment on it, really. Maybe I shouldn't have since it was kind of one of those things where someone was just upset about something and wanted to share.

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No, it's not one of those things where I was just venting some personal upset. I'm not personally upset about Mr. Russert -- I didn't know the man, nor have I ever watched him on TV (I've spent the majority of my adult life without television). I think what McDougall did is morally reprehensible, and saying that people do worse things doesn't excuse that.

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(I'm not pissed off any more. I still think that you are wrong, and that McDougall did the wrong thing, but if I had an aneurysm every time someone did something I found reprehensible, I'd be dead now.)

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It's not that I don't think it's in poor taste. It clearly is. I just don't find it as offensive as others, or maybe I just don't find it out of the ordinary. So many worse things are done every day to people (alive and dead) and to animals, that this doesn't register very high on my radar.

Wow. Again, I ask, how does this mitigate what McDougall wrote?

The fact is, Tim was under the care of a cardiologist, had changed his diet and was exercising. He was treating his known cardiac disease. So McDougall was completely wrong in his characterization of Tim Russert in this stupid mock interview.

That said, perfectly healthy people, on vegetarian and vegan diets even, die of heart attacks. Many of them have no history of heart disease, high cholesterol or high blood pressure.

This whole thing smacks of, "Well, he deserved it."

Yes, I'm angry at what you posted, and I'm angry with your attitude. And I think you ought to do a little self-analysis about this. But that's just my opinion. *That* said, it's not personal - it only has to do with what you posted here, and that Serene respects and likes you means a lot to me.

I almost said, "...carries a lot of weight with me". Then laughed. :)

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Hey, baby, I'll carry a lot of weight with you. *waggles eyebrows*

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***mwhah!!!!!***

:):):)

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(preface - please read this knowing that I am coming to this with nothing but good intentions. If I say something that seems stupid or offensive, please know that it was not intentional.)

I was about to post to Serene, actually, that I think that's what's at the heart of the upset - the idea that "he deserved" his death that the article might seem to convey.

That's a very touchy subject of course. I don't think anybody "deserves" suffering or death as punishment. But I do think that our actions can affect when and how we die. That's common sense. Would my mom still be alive if she wasn't sometimes a careless driver? Quite possibly. Would my grandma have cancer and heart disease simultaneously if she'd eaten better and stopped smoking? Hard to say. Would my grandpa be on his 3rd heart attack if he'd eaten his vegetables and not eaten bacon for breakfast every day of his life? Probably not. I think that my loved ones' actions probably do affect their lives/illnesses the same way I can't expect to make it up the hill on my bike if I don't work out 3 times a week or so, or keep riding my bike up the hill. It makes me very sad that my grandpa has resisted my aunt's attempts to educate him on healthier eating and that he considers lentil soup "too weird" to eat. I want my family to live longer lives.

For me, my grandparents' illnesses and eventual deaths may well be related to their diets, but I don't see it as a "blame" issue or something they "deserve," just as possible cause and effect. Our culture does often blame people for their illnesses or deaths in a more stigmatizing/judgmental way and that's unfortunate. I don't think blame is a very healthy thing anyway.

I have no way of knowing what McDougal was trying to do. What I read in the article was his frustration with the media for not examining the standard American diet as a sick-making diet and this was some attempt to use shock tactics to get through to people about what he sees as a way towards better health and longer life. I think that it's likely this man had good intentions gone horribly awry. And of course good intentions don't really excuse saying things which which may offend people, but I'd like to hope he just wasn't thinking of things that way.

Of course vegetarians and vegans also die of these illnesses. And of course no one should be stigmatized for their personal care decisions. I think it is important to have a dialogue in this country about the effects our personal choices have on our health, however. The dialogue right now is rather unhealthy and either is shallow or nonexistent or tends to focus a lot on blame, rather than opportunities. McDougal's article does not help that. But it's also frustrating when the dialogue isn't happening and America continues to focus on prescribing pills (like the ones my dad's on - my dad who eats mayonnaise sandwiches, diet coke and tv dinners every day) rather than discussing how we might prevent chronic illness in the first place.

I'm sorry for all of Mr. Russert's family and friends and their sadness.

It's weird, though. I've told my friends before that I think my mother's death has made me see someone's death as maybe less of a sort of "sacred cow" than I did before. In this culture when someone dies, we seem to feel that we should be more respectful to them or their friends than we were in life. That's strange to me. People write horrible things about living people all the time and then when that person dies, suddenly we're nice to them. Why not be nice and respectful to people when they're alive as well? (this is thinking out loud, somewhat, not trying to excuse McDougal, just musing.)

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And in case I've offended you again, I'll say sorry in advance. Sometimes I should probably quit while I'm ahead. The internet can be very susceptible to misunderstandings.

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I don't think we're misunderstanding each other. I think we're disagreeing. (And in case I'm not being clear, I think it's okay to disagree.)

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Oh, I'm not talking about me and you, but me and your friend. I think that she thinks I feel certain ways about the world which I don't feel.

With you and I this isn't a case of complete disagreement either. I think we both agree that this was an unfortunate way for Dr. McDougal to express himself. It's the degree to which we feel that which differs. I'm not sure why I felt the urge to comment, either. It wasn't something I felt totally strongly about. Maybe I'm just procrastinating on packing up my old room for my move upstairs. That's actually quite likely...

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Just a gentle request: Her name is Kathy (or

klwalton, if you prefer). It feels weird to have her referred to as "your friend" all the time.

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Oh, sorry. I didn't mean anything by it, honestly. Just generally lazy about using html tags and didn't know her name.

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No, I know. Not mad or anything. Honest. :-)

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I couldn't disagree with you more strongly. I have never seen among the garbage spouted at vegans (and I agree there's lots of it) something this egregious, where a person is disrespected in this way. He didn't consent to this interview, and he obviously didn't offer his photo for it. He's being exploited in the worst possible way without the chance to speak for himself. It turns my stomach, and I believe 100% that a low-fat vegan diet is the best choice for most people's bodies.

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Thank you. I was crying with frustration.

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I don't know - I'm sorry that you find it offensive, and sorry that your friend finds it offensive and my comment offensive, but I just see it differently.

It's not just the vegan issue, either. I just don't necessarily feel as strongly about talking about, manipulating dead people in this way, especially when they were celebrities.

It's not that no one close to me has ever died. My mom died when I was 20 and it had a big impact on me. I just don't think Russert himself can be hurt by these words or ideas. It's possible that those close to him could be hurt by them and that's unfortunate, but there's really no getting around being hurt when someone dies in any case, and when someone has been in the public eye, their image becomes fair game, for better or for worse.

I am sorry that you and your friend find it offensive, but ordinary vegans are attacked every day in the media and we're still alive to care about it.

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What about Russert's family? What about the notion of consent? Ordinary vegans may be attacked as a group, but if someone does an "interview" with you and uses your photo, you'd have the right to sue them, and rightly so. This is appalling to me, but I'm done talking about it with you, because you're a person I respect and like, and I don't think we're going to change each other's minds.

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(Also, because I'm angry, with McDougall and with you, and I don't think that's the best place for me to come from for discussions like this.)

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I think you underestimate your ability to change people's minds. You and your friend both do make good points.

If you feel like you'd rather not talk about it, however, I respect that.

- Jen

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eeyore-grrl.livejournal.com

agreed.

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rmjwell.livejournal.com

What a truly insulting and insensitive piece of crap.

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wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com

"Nobody dies of high blood pressure"?

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gremlin44.livejournal.com

That...is just....*arrrrrrrggggggghhhhhh*

Nice way to work someone's death.

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custardfairy.livejournal.com

I have no words.

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berkeleyfarm.livejournal.com

"Ghoul" is the only one I've got.

*farmgirl smash*

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therealjae.livejournal.com

Okay, that is appalling. Probably the worst case I've ever seen of someone trying to use someone else's voice in order to make their own point. Bleagh.

I hope someone tells him he's out of line.

-J

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hitchhiker.livejournal.com

wow - what a piece of slime :(

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pyrzqxgl.livejournal.com

That is seriously sick.

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19-crows.livejournal.com

That is some fucked up shit.

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sherriet.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com)

This is just wrong. Insensitve at the least.

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I've never heard of Dr. John McDougall. Looks like I'm in the minority on this blog.

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Also...and this is going to sound very weird because I am very uninformed (but truly curious!)...do vegans eat anything other than vegetables, fruits, grains, and water?

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