(no subject)

[serene]

I have really never understood why people assume atheists have no morality, but I've known that people think that, and it appears I'm not imagining it.

Thanks to stonebender for the link.

Comments

[flippac.livejournal.com]

Yuck. Somehow atheism, agnosticism and relatives never seem to merit the protection (more typical) religion gets either...

Not sure I've thrown this quip your way yet, so I may as well - I consider myself an apatheist, I don't really care if there is a god or not...

[flippac.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I understand why people think it. They think it's impossible to decide what's good or bad on your own. Where the existing religions got their ideas from is of course not the issue.

[baerana.livejournal.com]

My thoughts - since there is no reason to be moral other than fear of punishment, why would an atheist be moral, since they don't live in fear of god striking them down or sending them to eternal damnation?

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with your premise -- there are plenty of reasons to be moral other than fear of punishment. Some obvious ones, though there are more that I find to be less obvious:

1) Because people basically want to do what's right, and we don't need god to tell us that certain things are wrong (we're not always going to agree on the boundary cases, but there is a general consensus on the extremes -- torturing innocents for no reason is wrong; saving innocents from harm is right)
2) Because they (atheists) want to live in a fair and good world, and want to be part of that
3) Because the basis of morality is not to harm others, and there *is* punishment for harming others in society, even godless society (I realize this is fear of punishment, but it's not punishment-by-god or punishment-in-the-afterlife)
4) Knowledge that there is no one above to offer us free redemption/forgiveness, and we (and others) have to live with the consequences of our wrongdoings, and cannot wave them away by counting on someone else's sacrifice to make it all better

[flippac.livejournal.com]

To paraphrase one I rather liked from the Dao de Jing:

Because hurting people pisses them off and eventually makes your own life harder.

Lo and behold, the Golden Rule from purely selfish principles :-)

[pure-agnostic.livejournal.com]

Actually, that sounds more like the Silver Rule than the Golden Rule.
Golden Rule: "Do unto others what you would want done to you."
Silver Rule: "Don't do unto others what you would not want done to you."

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I don't actually care for either of these rules. I prefer something like "Do unto others as they would have done unto them."

[pure-agnostic.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is a much better rule. I've come across it in several different forms. Even the ancient Chinese philosopher, Zhuangzi, said it. My favorite form of it is: "Don't do unto others what you would want done to you. Their tastes may be different."

[baerana.livejournal.com]

in case that didn't come through, it was sarcasm, I am an atheist :)

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Oh, whew. I was really disturbed by your first clause, and I feel so much better now!

[kneidlach.livejournal.com]

there are plenty of reasons to be moral other than fear of punishment.

Thank you. Also, not all religious people fear punishment. Hell is a fairly unimportant concept in Judaism, at least the way I practice it. So is heaven, for that matter.

[melanie.livejournal.com]

yep, that seems to be a common idea especially where i'm at. which really ma,kles me wonder about these people, if they're assuming others have no motivation to be good other than fear of punishment, is it because that's how they, themse;lves operate?

sprry about the typing, al; fingers on right hand are bandaged today.

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

I know too many athiests and agnostics to ever think such a thing!

[kneidlach.livejournal.com]

I would like to understand more about what atheist morality looks like. I am one of those people who has a mistrust of atheists - Not the individual people in my life who don't believe in something bigger than them, but atheism as an identity or movement or what have you... But I am trying to understand more so I can be less ignorant about what it is that informs a sense of morality when there is no "Higher Power"/collective consciousness/divine/whatever you want to call it.

[kneidlach.livejournal.com]

i think what i just wrote is answered to some extent in your response to a previous poster, actually.

[baerana.livejournal.com]

one of my favorite quotes, and this pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject:

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion. - Abraham Lincoln

[firecat]

My personal view is that mostly wanting to treat each other well is built into the human species as an instinct - we evolved as social animals, and our shared values reflect that, even those of atheists.

[redbird]

I think that's like asking "what religious morality looks like"--there's a lot of difference between atheists (and agnostics) on this, just as there's a lot of difference between religious people on this one.

There are, as far as I can tell, no gods. But there is a world, a species, fellow intelligent beings who make up a society with me, and who I interact with. My actions affect them, and vice versa--and how I treat them affects how they treat me.

[someotherguy.livejournal.com]

I would like to understand more about what atheist morality looks like.

I think you're confused because you're asking the wrong question. There's no such thing as atheist morality. There's no way to build a morality out of the idea that there is no God, just like there's no way to build a morality out of the idea that Santa isn't real.

Many (most?) atheists are also secular humanists. We believe that Human happiness is an end unto itself. If you keep that in mind, it should be much easier to understand us.

By the way, it's a trap that atheists tend to fall into too. Atheist organizations tend to do fine as long as they concentrate on defending the rights of non-believers, but tend to implode when they try to move past that and become more socially relevant.

[schillerium.livejournal.com]

Because, as we all know, humans are basically empty vessels who have no conception of right or wrong until an authority figure tells us right from wrong.

Y'know, kinda like how completely normal high school students with no emotional issues whatosever suddenly become homicidal maniacs because they once saw a Marilyn Manson video on TV.

(*remove tongue from cheek*)

[purpletigron.livejournal.com]

When my head is clearer, I'll finish my essay on atheism. I'm exploring the idea that all morality must come from humans - since the religious must make the moral choice for themselves whether to accept (a) wholesale what their religion tells them, or (b) only what they personally find plausible.

[necturus.livejournal.com]

The link you posted doesn't seem to work for me.

But by coincidence, I read an article just last night on this very subject, "The Myth of Secular Moral Chaos" by one Sam Harris, in the April/May Free Inquiry magazine.

Among his points:

"If a book like the Bible were the only reliable blueprint for human decency... it would be impossible... to criticize it in moral terms. But it is extraordinarily easy... most of it is simply odious and incompatible with a civil society."

"If religion were necessary for morality, there should be some evidence that atheists are less moral than believers."

"If religion really provided the only conceivable objective basis for morality, it should be impossible to posit a non-theistic objective basis for morality. But it is not impossible; it is rather easy.

The article may eventually show up on http://www.secularhumanism.org; right now they only have the February/March issue posted.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

not a valid link.

i'm a few miles from the umn; you want i should go over and whack them?

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

Could you please? Thanks!

[meirion.livejournal.com]

i spend a lot of my time attempting to persuade (otherwise sensible) christians that actually atheists are probably more moral than they are – after all atheists don't have an afterlife disincentive to behaving badly, and yet manage (in general) to avoid doing so all the same.

however, i'm also trying to produce an academic treatise relating bdsm and christianity right now, so don't mind me if my views appear a bit skewed from the norm ;-)

-m-

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

A long time ago, I did some sort of LJ thing where everyone could click through and rate you on a bunch of scales. It was a little silly in that people tend to be wildly affirming in such things. However, when the results came about, I actually wound up being scored pretty low on the "morals" scale. That really surprised me. I'm assuming it's one of: atheism; polymory; bisexuality that did it. In any of those cases, I was kind of taken aback (especially given that it was the votes of my friends list, which is pretty stacked with poly people, bi people and atheists). In a couple of cases, I suppose it might have been the vegetarian-not-vegan thing.

[pure-agnostic.livejournal.com]

Some years ago, I told an acquaintance that I was a non-believer. His very next breath was: "Then what's stopping you from going around killing people and stealing things?" (From his tone of voice, I don't think it was sarcasm, but complete stupidity.)

My response was "Because I don't want to do that, and I don't want to live in a culture where that behavior is common." And then I continued with: "So is your religious belief all that stops you from killing and stealing?"

Needless to say, the conversation soon ended, and I never had any further contact with him since that day.