Serene of the Oakland Serenes

While I will admit there are people I see who would look significantly better to me if they lost some weight, you aren't one of them.

From:

I'm really not sure how to respond to this, especially in this context. I think you intend it as a compliment, so I will just say thanks and leave it at that.

From:

I'm sorry; my verbalizer is not entirely online yet this morning; what I mean to say is a good thing, yes; I don't think I've said what I mean to, and I'm not sure how to say it right now.

From:

Okay, thanks.

From:

Also, and I should've said this before, I apologize for any uncomfortableness cause by my original poor phrasing; I should've let the thought gestate longer before trying to express it.

From:

It's fine. If you want to talk about it later, I'd be up for it, or if you want to hear what my reaction was about, that, too. I know that you are not intending insult (to me or to other fat people), and I do appreciate your efforts to make that clear.

From:

uuuuuhhhhh, even after reading your dialog with serene, I will step forward and say that unless you intended this to mean that JUST like some people would look better with a red shirt rather than a blue shirt, then fine. but it does sound like a prejudicial comment to me.

From:

To be fair, I have no problem with people's attractions being what they are -- I don't mind if someone thinks that fat people are inherently more attractive, or inherently less attractive. (Me, I think fat people are generally hot, but if I didn't, I don't think that would be wrong, or even if it were, my fault.) I just think in the context of this discussion, it felt like a slam at other fat people, and an *unnecessary* one, as it was in response to my saying that attractiveness is kind of random, and that it's *really okay* if people think that because I'm fat, I'm by definition not pretty.

Oh, a lightbulb! I think I am hearing that Nolly was just letting me know that she doesn't see it that way -- some people are fat and pretty and some are fat and not pretty. Which is fine with me. What I think I was angry about was the idea that people could be ugly to someone *just because of their size*, which I guess still pisses me off, no matter how well I do with this stuff in general.

From:

leback.livejournal.com

Tacking on a somewhat idle datapoint that occurred to me in the course of contemplating different ways a comment like Nolly's might have been meant...

Even where I think something like "Person X would be more attractive to me if zie had trait A instead of B," it doesn't mean that I generally think A looks better than B, or that B makes people ugly--it may be that I simultaneously would find Person Y more attractive if zie had trait B instead of trait A. It's more an "overall effect of this trait combined with other features" sort of thing. So if I were thinking that way about body types, I might simultaneously think that X would be more attractive to me if zie were thin, but Y would be more attractive to me if zie were fat. So I could see saying something like what Nolly did without its reflecting any generalized opinion whatsoever about fatness or not-fatness.

Though I have to admit--usually, when I'm thinking that way about someone (that zie would be more attractive if some particular thing were changed), it's a sign that I'm measuring zir against some external standard (say, comparing zir to some other person, or some cultural ideal, that I find attractive), rather than just looking at zir directly. I find nearly all people aesthetically pleasing (even if not sexually attractive) when I manage to look at *them* instead of filtering my perceptions through preconceived notions of what I want people to look like.

From:

Right, and a thing that has occurred to me in this discussion is this: "How do you *know* they'd be more attractive if they were fatter/thinner/whatever?" I mean, you don't know that they don't have certain body features that would look really odd or bad to you if they were smaller/bigger/whatever.

From:

leback.livejournal.com

Too true. Weight is a lot more complex in that regard than, say, hair length or color (and even changes in those sometimes have startling effects).

It occurs to me that a circumstance under which I often have these reactions is when someone has changed something about their appearance, and I keep wanting them to look the old way. (I am getting better about this, but, for instance, it takes work for me to like the way my partners look immediately after they get their hair cut.) In that situation, you at least have a pretty good idea what they looked like before the change--but still no guarantees that if they actually tried to reverse the change (say, someone who's lost weight gaining it back) they'd look the same as before. So even there, while you might be able to say "I found zir more attractive when zie was fat," you can't be sure you'd find zir more attractive if zie were fat again.

Thank you for starting this discussion, by the way. My pondering has wandered pretty far afield of your original comments (which made me very happy to read, by the way; thank you!), but there's a lot of interesting stuff to think through here.

From:

pir-anha.livejournal.com

when i think stuff like that, it's usually because they have changed something major about their appearance. and i don't just think it about fat/thin, i think it about haircuts and clothing style and makeup too. if i think it at all. which usually happens only when somebody calls attention to the change.

i gotta say, it sounds as weird to me to hear "i think fat people are hot" as "fat people are ugly" (though the former is certainly much more refreshing). whom i find hot is not linked with their size, at least not directly (how they feel about their size, that can make a huge difference, but that's attitude, not size per se). i've never understood (emotionally) how so many people have a "type" which they find sexy.

From:

it was only after looking back at the similarities between some of the women I was most turned on to that I realized I have a type. and while I've dated others who didn't fit some of those specifications, some aspects of the mis-fitting just didn't work. and others did.

and, there's all sorts of attraction, some of which I enjoy just as a spectator sport, and others as a sweaty wrestling match.

From:

redbird

It's arbitrary, but so is my tendency to prefer people with long hair, something that I know isn't a sign of health or anything else, nor is it an absolute.

From:

firecat

i gotta say, it sounds as weird to me to hear "i think fat people are hot" as "fat people are ugly" (though the former is certainly much more refreshing). whom i find hot is not linked with their size, at least not directly (how they feel about their size, that can make a huge difference, but that's attitude, not size per se). i've never understood (emotionally) how so many people have a "type" which they find sexy.

I certainly don't understand having "types" either (I have more than one), but apparently understanding isn't required in order to have them.

They don't have a strong effect on whom I choose as partners.

If I say "I think fat people are hot," it's shorthand for "I find a greater percentage of fat people hot than people of other sizes, and their fatness appears to have something to do with this." I don't mean that I automatically think every fat person is hot, and I don't mean that fatness (e.g., photos of rolls of fat) is hot - it has to be a quality of an actual person.

How someone feels about zir size doesn't seem to be a determining factor, unfortunately. I've been quite attracted to some people who hate that they are fat.

From:

pir-anha.livejournal.com

but apparently understanding isn't required in order to have them.

*snicker*. yeah, rarely is, is it. but you know me, i must ferret out why i do things, or i'll be suspicious of them. understanding why other people do things can be instructive in that endeavour.

the thought glomp for which this is the shorthand makes more sense to me. now i wonder what about their fatness it is.

what lies behind finding more societally disdained people hot might also be more complex than, frex, finding societally praised people hot. i think for me there is an exposure component, and some learned appreciation that's come with conscious analysis of just what it is in a person i find attractive, even though at the point at which i go "oh, hot!" that is no longer conscious at all. i think i'll chew on that in my own LJ.

have you always been this way, or has it changed over the years?

From:

firecat

I've always had types, and I've always had some types that didn't match "conventional attractiveness." Sometimes I speculate that this is because I've never believed I was conventionally attractive and so I've believed that other non-CA people were the people I had to "choose from". But it's not how I FEEL about it, it's just a plausible reason from some angles. Also, I don't have auto-attraction to all non-CA people, so why some and not others?

The range of sizes I find auto-attractive has broadened over the years. I think this has been *affected* by my work to dismantle my own fat prejudice, but I don't feel like I directly tinkered with my attractions. I also think it's affected by exposure, as you say.

From:

Pretty much like that, yes. One facet is that I don't think my aesthetic taste represents any sort of truth or value, only my individual taste -- there are lots of things I don't find aesthetically appealing that other people do, and vice versa. The are fat people that, to me, look good fat. The are fat people who would look good at any size. There are also fat people who would look better to me, less fat -- not skinny, but less fat. Other people would disagree with me, and that's OK, too -- no one should change their look on my say-so. I think I'm probably still not expressing myself clearly, but does that help?

From:

For what it's worth, that's what I just figured out you were saying (see one of my responses to

clever_doberman). In the context, I think it was kind of clueless -- I had just said that people's reactions to my size were fine but irrelevant, and I was confused by why you would come back and say, "but you're fine, even if those other fat people aren't." Does that make sense?

From:

"I am not a person who thinks all fat people are attractive, but I see beauty in you" would be closer to what I meant, I think. Neither "because of" nor "in spite of" your size.

From:

(and by saying "I see beauty in you", I don't meean you're the rare exception, only that you're who I'm talking to -- overall, I'd say the group of people who look fine to me just the way they are is much larger than the "would look better to me if they lost/gained weight" group.)

From:

I am not a person who thinks all fat people are attractive is a different statement from there are people I see who would look significantly better to me if they lost some weight.

I might say I am more attracted to women with big breasts, but I wouldn't think to tell some woman "hey, if only you'd grow bigger breasts, I'd be attracted to you." [and, for the record, I don't care what size my lover's breasts are, I just like to kiss bodies with breasts.]

Perhaps the problem with your first comment, Nolly, is that by saying "if they lost weight" you are presuming (1) that there is a safe and sane way to do that and (2) that I might want to do that so that I'd be more attractive to you. no, I don't know what you are presuming, I'm just saying that I take that comment to mean those things. and they piss me off.

From:

I have already admitted that my original comment was badly phrased, and apologized. While I am not denying the possibility of the implications you see, I am denying intending them -- as I said above, and as I hope Serene (who has known me for some years) knows, I do not expect or desire everyone in the world to confirm to my ideals of aesthetic appeal.

I am not defending my original statement -- it was poorly written. I am only trying to clarify what I meant to say.

From:

For what it's worth, I long agon moved away from the original statement, and now I'm just trying to discuss what all this has brought up for me in a mostly theoretical way. I have assumed all along that you spoke in goodwill, just so you know.

From:

Nolly, I, too, am moving more to the theoretical. I can see that you started out saying something that once it rolled out of your "mouth" sounded different than you might have felt, so while I am expressing my true reactions, I do not see you as a bad person or someone I have to challenge.

From:

dawnd.livejournal.com

Beauty (and the flip-side, "ugliness") is an interesting beast. While it's true on one level that it's "in the eye of the beholder," it's equally the case that one's own inner attitude has a great deal to do with one's projection of beauty into the world. There's a saying I've heard that goes something like "a smile is the best beauty treatment in the world." You have an inner beauty, confidence, and an attitudinal "smile" that are immensely powerful. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some people who would normally be predisposed to see you as "automatically not pretty" find themselves reacting to that and not understanding why they find you beautiful despite their scripts. I love to observe the way you love yourself and your body, and I wish every girl in the world could have your attitude and confidence. The world would be a much happier, and much more beautiful place.

From:

Thank you so much for this. Truly.

From:

dawnd.livejournal.com

You are welcome, truly. :^) I wish very much to model your confidence and attitudes about body, weight, self-image, and food to my own daughter. I feel I have much to learn from you, and I appreciate that I can get a glimpse into your mind through your journal. Thank you for sharing yourself with me this way.

(deleted comment)

From:

*sigh*

Thanks for loving me, and I know you're trying to help. I love you for it. *smooooch*

There may, however, be a post later today about how expressing your love of my beauty doesn't have to include insulting other people. Your comment and

nolly's, while very obviously intended as loving gestures of affirmation, have made me a bit angry and sad (about our culture more than about you two as individuals), and I may have the energy to articulate it later.

From:

revcarol.livejournal.com

I've never seen you. You're beautiful. I don't give a flying fuck what you look like.

From:

Thanks, sweetie. *smooch*

From:

revcarol.livejournal.com

I've seen plenty of huge women who were so gorgeous that I envied them.

Was that what you were talking about?

From:

No, not exactly. (I sent you an email in response to a comment you may have deleted about this).

Here's what I'm getting at. I said that I think "beauty/ugliness" is an artificial construct, that it's made up. Nolly's response that says that I am beautiful, but other people who are fat aren't, feels to me to be exactly the thing I was trying to counter. Your response that says that I'm beautiful, and anyone who says I'm not is a skinny bastard, feels to me to be exactly the thing I was trying to counter.

Does that make any sense at all? I'm not angry any more. I'm just trying to find words to articulate this disconnect I seem to be feeling.

From:

revcarol.livejournal.com

Wait, I was too upset while reading this to catch the whole thing. I really don't think I insulted anyone else. I was only talking about you and what a beautiful person you are. I don't believe I said anything along the lines of, "For a fat person, you're not at all disgusting!"

I just re-read your original post, and it's about two different things. It's about other people's perceptions of you, and then about the cultural issues.

I responded to the first.

From:

Being a fat woman in this culture has had a significant impact in the development of who I am at this ripe age of almost 56.

at the very same time, I am so much more than, other than, bigger than just a fat woman. I think sometimes I can dance around and shapeshift in someone's eyes and project an image that flys square in the face of their stereotype of what/who a fat woman is. I also act AS IF the other person is fully accepting and appreciating of my fullness and they find themselves surprised by their resulting attitude. and, that is a lot of work on my part. a lot.

From:

Thanks for getting it. I think a lot of my joy today was that it was completely okay with me that people don't always like my body. I mean, it was natural and good and really OKAY.

From:

imagine what it would be like if every single person was attracted to you. it could get kinda annoying or distracting.

I think a person who is a human barbie doll might feel like everyone is attracted to them, and while more people are, it certainly isn't 100%.

so, theoretically, I could give a rat's ass if not everyone finds me their cup of tea. but in fact I have ads in two on-line dating services and I'm getting turned down left and right even though I'm quite a catch. fortunately, I have a great many friends who love me and remind me what a hottie I am, so there!

From:

Just so you know, i'd do you in a New York minute if it weren't for that pesky monogamy thing. (I almost put a little smiley here, but while this is intended to be lighthearted, I most certainly am not joking.)

From: