(no subject)

[serene]

The other day:

someotherguy: We sure seem to have a fair number of friends who are with partners who aren't good enough for them, don't we?

Me: Ayup.

someotherguy: It seems like most, if not all, of them are women, too.

Me: Yep.

someotherguy: I wonder why that is?

*pause*

someotherguy: Oh, wait -- duh. It's because women are so much better than men!

*laughter*

Me: You know that's getting blogged, right?

someotherguy: *laughs*

Comments

[elissaann.livejournal.com]

I wonder how many of them believe that their partners aren't good enough for them.

Mine is!

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I wonder that, too.

And yeah, we're totally happy for you. It's so sweet the way you two are together.

(We have so many friends whose reports about their boyfriends/husbands are just filled with things that astound me -- I mean, that a person could treat a person like that and not get kicked to the curb just boggles the mind.)

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

then again, there are always at least two sides to a story.

i don't know that i like the "not good enough" interpretation. that wouldn't have helped me one iota when i had low self-esteem. viewing it in terms of incompatible dynamics seems much safer -- the person might not be per se an asshole, but we might really bring out the worst in each other, and should therefore not be partners.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I actually think it's kind of shorthand for me and James, for something like "I don't like the way our friend is being treated." (We mostly save this for instances when we've witnessed the bad treatment, but sometimes it's stuff we've only heard one side of, and we are conscious that we're taking sides, perhaps irrationally.)

In another example of this, we often say to each other "I don't deserve you," and we don't mean it. What we really mean is "You're being so incredibly great right now." But we have an odd [cross-thread-to-that-other-place] idiolect, I think. A lot of it would sound mean-spirited out of context, but we both know we don't mean it that way, so it works in our little shorthand way.

[redbird]

So are mine, or they wouldn't be my partners. So are Serene's, I believe.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I just have to assume that their partners have lots of good qualities that I don't hear about through whatever frustrating thing is happening at the time. I know that lots of people thought cute-poet-chick wasn't good enough for me, and maybe she wasn't, but it felt worth it to stay with her because though the bad times were BAD, the good times were really good.

When it goes on for years, though, I really do wonder if these women really think that they *deserve* the bad treatment they're getting.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

And yes, my partners are possibly *too* good for me. ;-) (Really kidding -- one of the best things about this setup is that we really do deserve each other, in a good way.)

[redbird]

Yes. My loves make it very clear that they appreciate me, and we take good care of each other.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I've been one of those women.

Fortunately, I'm not any more. (-:

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Me, too, also, but I chose it. I don't choose it any more.

Missing you today.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

A very smart friend of mine (who is not on LJ as far as I know) once figured it out like this: roughly 2/3 of the women in the world (or the world we know) are pretty damned good people. Roughly 1/3 of the men are. That's the issue.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i hope you're not serious.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Can't say I agree. I will say that I would buy "2/3 of the women in the world we know are socialized to treat men well, and 1/3 of the men are socialized to treat women well," but I may be full of shit.

[redandfiery.livejournal.com]

Some women *make* 'em that way. I had a friend in my hometown who could turn a moderately nice guy into a complete arsehole, in one year tops. She was adorable as a mate, but a complete doormat as a girlfriend, and they'd start off just slightly taking advantage, find that there were no repercussions, and just get progressively worse until they were treating her like shit. One of them was an ex-casual-shag of mine, who'd been perfectly fine with me, and was perfectly fine with her for a while, before degenerating over time into a complete swine.

Me: What the fuck happened to M? He was a nice bloke when he was with me, and now he's a complete bastard.

Her Sis: Yeah, but y'see, *you* would never have let him get away with this shit.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

sorry, that dog won't hunt. a good person would tell the doormat to get some counseling, instead of becoming progressively more of a shit and taking advantage of her.

i don't believe it's possible to turn a genuinely nice person into an asshole by "letting him get away" with things. anyone who starts to bank on getting away with things is already an asshole, others just didn't see it before.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I suppose I could be seen as letting someotherguy "get away with a lot" but he would never take advantage of that to my detriment, so he's probably *kinder* to me now than ever, not meaner.

[redandfiery.livejournal.com]

You're right, of course. I don't know what was going on in my head when I wrote that ... *thinks* ... Actually, I do. I regressed straight back to the hasty, politically-unaware twentysomething I was, in the time when I was hanging out with those people. Sheesh, talk about blaming the victim.

I think I need to go somewhere quiet and think about this in context of What I Have Learned Since Then.

It may not be possible, as you say, to turn a genuinely nice person into an asshole by "letting him get away" with things, but what about a borderline, could-have-become-nice-with-a-firm-push-in-the-right-direction person? Hmmm.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

well, i think we all have a little asshole in us. :) at least most people i know. and i think it's entirely possible that certain people bring that out more than others -- heck, i know it is, because i've had it happen. i've had somebody "turn me" into a competitive twit who'd debate even personally important issues primarily to win the argument, using my sharp tongue to good effect no matter whether it ended in tears. it took me a while to realize that we weren't good for each other in that (and a few other) aspects of our relationship, and that all the love in the world couldn't help it because we couldn't give up the things that caused the dynamics to be so weird.

but the dynamic didn't come from nothing; i do have that competitive twit inside of me even though i am generally very non-competitive. i've seen it brought out by different people since, in usenet flamewars.

several realizations later i'm less inclined to judge people as assholes, but tend to think that certain dynamics end up being unhealthy for everyone involved, and that they're better apart if they can't change those (and they are remarkably difficult to change, and of course, one has to realize what's up before one can change anything, and by that time the habits are usually formed, and habits are even harder to change).