(no subject)

[serene]

If there is as much bad as good; if there is MORE bad than good, and the
bad is something people can change, can do something about -- then don't
tell me to focus on the good.

I do not deny that religion and faith (two separate things) have brought
some good to individuals -- I know some of them, and I believe it has made
their lives better. However, I think it's brought a lot of bad to
individuals and societies, bad that could be prevented, bad that is, at
its most sickening, *encouraged* by religion.

So I won't stop talking about the evils perpetuated in the name of
religion, not even if my religious friends write to me and ask me to look
at the good that comes of faith. I've looked. It doesn't outweigh the
bad. Not by a mile.

For every person who finds comfort in a time of need, there are people who
believe their need and lack is God's will. For every person who feels
accepted by God, there are people whose lives are ruined by churches and
other religious organizations, and there are people whose evil is
justified by their reading of "holy" books.

I was there. I was in a place in which my suffering was God's will, and
the natural expression of my joy was forbidden. I've also watched
countless people accept the evil in the world as "God's will".

I hear you, my friend, when you say I'm angry at God, and I can see why
you might think I am. I'm not. No more than I'm angry at the Easter
Bunny. God doesn't exist, as far as I'm concerned -- I'm angry at a large
subset of God's followers. And I love you, but you're one of them.

Comments

Please don't be angry with the Easter Bunny!

[dakiwiboid.livejournal.com]

The Bunny LOOOOOOVES you and wants to bring you lots of eggs! Hugs. I'm a believer, but I won't argue with you about your convictions!

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

Hear hear.

[qnetter]

I reject your math, but that's fine.

[pameladean]

Thank you.

P.

[tesseract26.livejournal.com]

This is very ironic - my initial response to reading this was, "Amen!" :)

Which, translated from the Southern, means I'm with you. I'm a cranky Unitarian who believes in... uh... something, but I'm pissed at a large number of God's followers, too. I spend a lot of my political life fighting them because they can't seem to grasp that they way they choose to live isn't something they should use the apparatus of the state to force others to adopt.

[pure-agnostic.livejournal.com]

Ironically, my response is "Amen to that, sister!" :-)


As I see it, more evil has been done in the name of "religion" than for any other purpose.

[redbird]

This seems entirely reasonable to me.

I suspect the people who write and ask you to look at the good that comes of faith or religion would be astonished and/or upset if, whenever they talked about that good, someone wrote and asked them to look at the harm that faith, or religion, does.

Like you, I know people who have found value there. Some of the people I love are proof that this can be done in ways that don't suppress love or joy, and they don't try to enforce their beliefs on the rest of us, nor support those who do, even when it's in the name of the same god or the same religion.

[laurenhat.livejournal.com]

I don't know about more bad than good (not sure how to empirically quantify that kind of thing), but definitely a lot of bad. And I agree as far as all the bad goes. I don't have much use for religion at all, myself, and am angry about many parts of it... but since I don't know how to do the math of good (and how much good?) in some lives and bad (how much?) in others, I feel like I shouldn't condemn it outright.

Am midway throught Dennett's book, Breaking the Spell, right now. Have you read it?

[laurenhat.livejournal.com]

(And though I feel like I shouldn't condemn it, I often do anyway.)

[necturus.livejournal.com]

I do not deny that religion and faith (two separate things) have brought some good to individuals -- I know some of them, and I believe it has made their lives better. However, I think it's brought a lot of bad to
individuals and societies...

One of the paradoxes of humanity, I think, is that while the individual person tends toward nobility and beauty, collectively -- as a crowd -- we rarely show any but our basest and ugliest aspects, whether we be godly or godless. Are religions truly more pernicious than nations, languages, skin colors, genders, or other arbitary definitions of "us" versus "them"?

That said, so far I have found doubt more useful than faith in my search for truth, and I feel a bit more doubt and a bit less faith would make the world a better place.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

you renew my faith in atheists.


(i'm not kidding! there is one who i know who as soon as i disagree with zir explains to me that i'm being stupid, just like theists. um.)

[firecat]

the evils perpetuated in the name of religion

My only question about this is whether you think these evils would cease to be perpetuated if there weren't anything specifically called religion? I have my doubts, because I think people have a tendency to form systems of belief and then use those systems to justify bad behavior against others, regardless of whether those systems are specifically "religious."

That's not an argument FOR religion, of course. I'm just saying that I think the problem is bad behavior itself more than a particular subset of belief systems. And one could argue that belief systems in themselves are bad, but while I can (only just) imagine a world without belief in gods of one form or another, I can't imagine a world without belief systems; I don't think human beings can do without them.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

My idea is that any belief system that encourages 100% unwavering certainty is the real root of all evil, whether that belief system is structured around a deity, a political -ism, an economic system, or the antithesis to any of these.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

I don't think human beings can do without them.

Dream bigger.

We used to think we couldn't fly, not to mention about five way more emotional examples of things we used to think could never be.

[firecat]

I don't think flying is a good counterexample, because humans seem much better at improving technology than at improving human nature. But I hope you are right that my thinking is too small in this area.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

I will say that it seems to me that the desire to turn humankinds tool-making and -improving tendancies inwards has been spreading through a larger percentage of the population over the past century or so. Sometimes I wonder if some of the current fascist response isn't a backlash against non-centralized human development.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

Okay, how about Suffrage or Segregation, the 4 minute mile or home run milestones.

It seems like it always takes forever to overcome some insurmountable goal and then once we do we realize how small a goal it really was. Miscegenation was thought of as a threat to the very fabric of society not that long ago and now only a lunatic fringe even think about bringing back those laws. It'll be the same thing with the next hurdle in equality in marriage. Once we're on the other side, Joe six-pack will look back and think, "Why was this ever an issue?"

There are a lot more out of the closet atheists these days, than ever and according to a recent poll, America likes Atheism better then Scientology.

Religion isn't going away tomorrow or anything but it does seem like we're continually realizing that we can do just fine without gods.

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Thank you, thank you, and thank you.

I am neither an atheist nor an agnostic, but do to agree with you here. Some of the saddest and cruelest things I've seen done were done in the name of or under the name of religion. (I was raised catholic, so I can tell the stories from that place. I imagine there are many other horrors under many other labels, but they are not mine to know.)

I wish you peace and joy and fullness. And I appreciate your speaking out. Mark Twain would be proud of you!

[dbubley.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of an agnostic. I believe when it pleases me and it what pleases me. I'm very hedonistic about my fantasies.

God is a 12-step program. It replaces a seriously destructive addiction with one designed to be less destructive and in the beginning it works just fine. However, the more devout in this new addiction one becomes the more more potntial for destruction gets created.

The newness, or honeymoon, wears off rather quickly, and people start back pedaling away from their old addictions by desperately getting deeper and deeper into their new one. Somewhere in the world there is a 12-step program for people addicted to 12-stepping. And it all starts by turning it over to a higher power. At least they're not drinking and beating up on their families. They're not really sober; they've just found other ways to delude themselves and ignore their families by going to meetings and bonding with their new and better family. The kids still get fucked up, but at least they're not bruised.

I like to 12-step. My higher power is a warrior goddess with nice boobs, and when I pray I must also concentrate on licking her cunt with serious focus and concentration on her clitoris. It gets me great parking, so I believe. I'm not kidding. God is what you want god to be. God is internal. When god becomes external - well, RUN!

[tracytreefrog.livejournal.com]

*giggles*

[dryadgrl]

I don't about Jesus, but *i* love you.

[dbubley.livejournal.com]

I just want to add that I don't believe in atheism anymore than I believe in god, maybe even less. Most atheist I know are way too devout for me. Maybe I've just met the fudmentalists. I just don't think most of the time it matters.

Maybe when religion becomes law or sets public policy it might matter to me, but then again it might not. It has more to do with what I believe about law or public policy than it does with whether or not I believe in god.

I'm a pragmatic hedonist. If it feels good and it works, then I say go for it. I don't know if imagination or creativity are gods, but I think they rule. John Lennon wrote Imagine, but he also wrote, "Whatever gets you through the night, it's alright, it's alright." If I hadn't heard Yoko sing, I might have, at one time, believed John Lennon was god. Maybe I do believe it. His word are almost always delicious.

Now I'm off to bed.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you're confusing Atheism and Atheism. One is the belief that there is no god(s), which is still a belief. The other is the absence of belief in god(s).

Some of the one kind can be a real pain and be as committed to their faith as any theist. The others just don't much care and get confused with agnostics a lot.

[dbubley.livejournal.com]

I think I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist. I really don't know, either way, whether or not god(s) exist. Yet, I could be a theology student, just not wholeheartedly a practicing theist of any sort for any of the "right" reasons. I really don't care about it strongly enough to challenge just about anybody on the basis of religion. For all I know, they might be right, though I usually tend not to think so.

I can't think of anything that could conclusively prove to me whether or not god exist.There is always a lingering doubt that it might be a trick, or have a rational explanation, etc. or that maybe magic really does exist somewhere in the world, just probably not here or not now.

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

When it comes to the church, and "God", I try to hate the sin, and love the sinner.

That whole golden rule thing, yanno? Except that I'm not a Believer.

n.

[(Anonymous)]

There's a book I was skimming at the bookstore about a man whose Christian relatives wouldn't attend his gay wedding. He said they were the type of Christians who loved the sinner and hated the sin. He said that meant they got to be loving and he got to be a sinner.

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

Since I'm not a Christian of any sort, I can't really speak to that.

I can say that I love my born again half-sister, without loving her church.

Sinner. Sin.

n.

[maestrodog.livejournal.com]

I've always been greatly saddened on how people rip this planet to shreds with their bombs and bullets all in the name of religion. What's ironic is that if one side ever does finally prevail against all others, there will be nothing worthwhile left to worship.