Ways in which I'm different from people I know

[serene]

A friend posted (in a locked post) a list of ways in which zie's different from zir peers. I thought it was interesting, so I'm reposting my list here.



[The "you" is (probably obviously) the person to whose journal I was responding; my elucidations of context are in brackets.]

Some ways I'm different-like-you:

Toilet seat: I entirely agree with you [that there's no reason the toilet seat has to go down after a man has used it, and that it's just as reasonable for me to have to put it down and for him to have to put it up], and that bugs my wife, who really wanted someone on her side in the toilet-seat debate. I do tend to put it down when company is coming, but otherwise, I don't see the big deal, or why my convenience should trump his. (Besides, I *never* go to the bathroom in the pitch-dark, and I *always* look a the seat first, so I'm unlikely to fall in.)

Abortion: I'm even more conflicted than you are [about when a clump of cells turns into a person]. I'm enjoying a conversation about it on an atheist listserv right now, and I tend to be unpopular among liberals for my wishy-washiness on this issue. I was given the silent treatment (along with my presentation partner) at a national Green Party convention for this.


Some ways I'm different from you and others:

I would not slip birth-control into anyone's tater tots [a half-joking, I assume, reference zie made to a famous person-with-a-zillion-kids]. I think an individual family having ten kids (or twenty) is not the problem. The problems are education, distribution of resources, and the social safety net, in my view. In addition, I would never ever ever ever ever support a family-size limit, because that way leads to infanticide, especially of female babies.

I don't think there's a god -- or a goddess, or a spiritual force, or whatever -- and I think religion in general is more harmful than beneficial.

Related to the above, most of my friends are pagan (though many are not), and most of them believe that all paths are equally valid. I do not. I certainly (really, truly) respect other people's right to *choose* a path I would not choose. I will not lie and say I respect the path itself.

The majority of my friends, it seems, go to sex parties. I don't, and I have no great desire to. I do like them in theory, but my social anxiety will probably prevent me from going unless a partner has a great desire to go and have me go with zir.

I don't believe all queer people are queer from birth. I know for sure that I was straight until my mid-20s. (I also don't believe that all queer people are queer by choice. I think people are different, and this is one way in which stuff manifests differently for different people.)

I don't download free (pirated) music, and I don't accept copies of CDs from people who are not my immediate family. I'm on the fence about the whole intellectual-property debate, but until I've made up my mind for sure, I prefer not to do anything that feels like stealing to me.

I am not a vegetarian, even though I think it's ethically and morally wrong for me to eat meat. (Most of my friends are either vegetarian, or they're not and they don't think there's anything wrong with it.)

Comments

[elissaann.livejournal.com]

I am not a vegetarian, even though I think it's ethically and morally wrong for me to eat meat.

As for me, I don't always tell the truth, even though I think it's ethically and morally wrong for me to lie.

(Am I getting warm?)

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

We are the same in that respect, though I have been making more and more of an effort not to lie, even when it costs me something. It's a difficult thing, to tell the truth (heh).

[saluqi.livejournal.com]

The toilet seat and cover goes down in our house not over gender issues, but to stop the dogs drinking from the large white porcelain bowl. :D

Interesting list, I may lift it!

[dryadgrl]

I'm curious, you say that you do not believe that all paths are equally valid - can you tell me what you mean by that?

I agree with part of this or what I feel like is my version of a sentiment of this - that there is no One True Way to enlightment, godd/spirit/whatever. But that implies that there is some where to go on a path and you don't believe that. What do you believe?

And a corollary to this quesiton for me that I'm not sure I've ever asked an atheist before - what animates humans? (Not like line drawings) What makes us live?

I'm not sure about this whole thing with souls and after lives and all that, but there's something that brought us into being somehow - what do you call that?

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I'm curious, you say that you do not believe that all paths are equally valid - can you tell me what you mean by that?

For "paths" you could read "systems of belief", "ways of approaching life", or "ways of interpreting reality". Does it make more sense that way?

I agree with part of this or what I feel like is my version of a sentiment of this - that there is no One True Way to enlightment, godd/spirit/whatever. But that implies that there is some where to go on a path and you don't believe that. What do you believe?

I believe we are all on the same path, in that context: cradle to grave. We are all born, we live, we die. There is no god/spirit to seek, and finding spiritual meaning or not doesn't change that trajectory -- birth, life, death. That's all we get. However, in making the best life we can for ourselves, we arrive at ways of looking at what's going on, and some people believe contradictory things. They cannot all be right.

And a corollary to this quesiton for me that I'm not sure I've ever asked an atheist before - what animates humans? (Not like line drawings) What makes us live?

I'm not sure about this whole thing with souls and after lives and all that, but there's something that brought us into being somehow - what do you call that?

I call it electrical activity in the brain, and other physical phenomena. Spirit is not required for something to be alive. If what you're asking is where consciousness comes from, I think there's no reason to believe that it's separate from the physical reality of the body. The mind(/spirit) and the body are not separate -- they are one, which is, if I'm understanding it correctly, a really common thing for pagans to believe.

[dryadgrl]

Hmmm... interesting..

I believe we are all on the same path, in that context: cradle to grave. We are all born, we live, we die. There is no god/spirit to seek, and finding spiritual meaning or not doesn't change that trajectory -- birth, life, death. That's all we get. However, in making the best life we can for ourselves, we arrive at ways of looking at what's going on, and some people believe contradictory things. They cannot all be right.

interesting, for me I see that it's possible to do and "be" (for some value of be) many different things. I see paths as things like choices - I chose to be a parent, a priestess, a technical writer, an activists. Each of these is a path or part of a path. Ultimately they all ead to death so I can see that perspective.

I think where I'm different than you is that I think that we each have potential to do different things. I don't think that we are all capable or even interested in doing the same thing(s) and I think that's generally a Good Thing. I see that as part of someone's "path."

For me formailizing respect for diversity comes out in the form of a path.

I have sometimes found your sance on atheism (and not just yours) to be really frustrating. I don't need people to believe what I believe, but I really want others to allow and even encourage me and others to pursue things that make them happy. And I have reacted very strongly when I heard someone say something about recognizing divnity in you and your response being something like "not possible. doesn't exist."

I'm just sad that it feels like one of the places that I can't really share my thoughts with you. Not that we've spent time together in a long time. But it's something that I've been holding.

Anyway, I'm glad that you're able to express yourself so clearly. Thank you for that.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

interesting, for me I see that it's possible to do and "be" (for some value of be) many different things. I see paths as things like choices - I chose to be a parent, a priestess, a technical writer, an activists. Each of these is a path or part of a path. Ultimately they all ead to death so I can see that perspective.

I think where I'm different than you is that I think that we each have potential to do different things. I don't think that we are all capable or even interested in doing the same thing(s) and I think that's generally a Good Thing. I see that as part of someone's "path."

I'm not sure how any of that contradicts anything I've said (if you weren't intending to contradict what I said, then cool, feel free to ignore this part. :-) I haven't said (and wouldn't say) that people can't choose different paths. I've said that some ways that people believe about reality and the world around them are mutually exclusive. I'll pick as an example two things that cannot both be true: (1) All paths are equally valid; (2) People who don't believe in Jesus are not following the true path. Two more things that cannot both be true: (1) God is a personal being who cares which name I call Him; (2) God is in everything, but is not a personal being. These are examples of things that, for me, negate the concept that everyone's beliefs are equally valid. If your (generic your, not you in particular) belief that there is a goddess (or a pantheon, or a god, or multiple deities, or whatever) comes up against my belief that such an entity doesn't exist at all, one of us is wrong. It is not possible that we are both correct. That's all I mean. And by the way, I'm not asking that anyone agree that I am the one who's right in order for this point to be made. If you're (again, generic you) right, I'm wrong. If you're wrong, I'm right. But my point boils down to the fact that we can't both be correct.

For me formailizing respect for diversity comes out in the form of a path.

I have sometimes found your sance on atheism (and not just yours) to be really frustrating. I don't need people to believe what I believe,

Neither do I.

but I really want others to allow and even encourage me and others to pursue things that make them happy.

So do I.

And I have reacted very strongly when I heard someone say something about recognizing divnity in you and your response being something like "not possible. doesn't exist."

So they state their belief about me and my relationship to the Universe, and I state mine (which is different from theirs), yes? Why have I set off a reaction in you, and not them? Does it not frustrate you that other people are putting their interpretation of reality onto someone that they know doesn't share it? If you say to me (and you -- you in particular -- have done this) "I feel the Goddess in me at those times," I wouldn't dream of contradicting you. I really do believe that you are telling the truth, even though I wouldn't describe my experiences that way. If, however, you say you see the Goddess in *me*, well, I get to disagree with that. Me is me. I am in charge of me. I get to say the Goddess doesn't live in me.

I'm just sad that it feels like one of the places that I can't really share my thoughts with you.

And I get sad, angry, and frustrated when the fact that I disagree with someone gets interpreted by them as that they can't talk to me about it. If we disagree, and that means we can't discuss something, I see that as more of a problem than the disagreement itself.