(no subject)

[serene]

karenbynight posted this in a protected entry, but gave me permission to repost, so here it is. I welcome comment. I don't think I agree with it all, but it rings true in a lot of places, and I want to ponder it some more. My comments are in [brackets].

1. Just because you feel bad doesn't mean somebody else did something wrong.
2. Just because you feel good doesn't mean you're doing the right thing.
3. New relationship energy is icing. Love is bread. Both are tasty.
4. Play with your food; eat your toys. [I also like eating my food and playing with my toys.]
5. There are few things you can do on this planet more worthwhile, more wholesome, more important to your needs as a human being, your country's needs, and your planet's needs, than loving other people. As many of 'em as possible. [Hmm. I have to think about this. I'm not sure quantity of people is important, at least not pure quantity, as opposed to, say, quantity relative to the amount of social energy one has, or something.]
6. The essence of integrity is setting other peoples' expectations correctly -- aka making commitments -- and then living up to those expectations. [I think I see integrity as a thing fairly independent of other people's expectations of me, but I also see honoring my commitments -- and not overcommitting -- as an element of integrity, so this is another one to ponder.]
7. There are those who will claim that failing to be forthright and proactive about setting expectations excuses you from the duty of keeping commitments; that it's not at all your fault if the other person assumed commitments you didn't intend to make but didn't disabuse them of. Don't be That Guy. [Amen, and amen.]

Comments

[kightp.livejournal.com]

5. There are few things you can do on this planet more worthwhile, more wholesome, more important to your needs as a human being, your country's needs, and your planet's needs, than loving other people. As many of 'em as possible. [Hmm. I have to think about this. I'm not sure quantity of people is important, at least not pure quantity, as opposed to, say, quantity relative to the amount of social energy one has, or something.]

What if you interpret "as possible" as being "as possible for you"?

[catrinaz.livejournal.com]

I'm commenting to remind myself to comment further ;)

I'm too tired now, but want to read this more carefully and most likely comment...tomorrow or something.

[firecat]

5. There are few things you can do on this planet more worthwhile, more wholesome, more important to your needs as a human being, your country's needs, and your planet's needs, than loving other people. As many of 'em as possible. [Hmm. I have to think about this. I'm not sure quantity of people is important, at least not pure quantity, as opposed to, say, quantity relative to the amount of social energy one has, or something.]

I'd go one step further and say that the second sentence of the original quote is entirely unnecessary.

6. The essence of integrity is setting other peoples' expectations correctly -- aka making commitments -- and then living up to those expectations. [I think I see integrity as a thing fairly independent of other people's expectations of me, but I also see honoring my commitments -- and not overcommitting -- as an element of integrity, so this is another one to ponder.]

My quote file has this (I think it's a NancyButton):
Honor: Do what you say. Say what you mean. Mean what you do.

I think that's a pretty good definition of integrity, too.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

7. There are those who will claim that failing to be forthright and proactive about setting expectations excuses you from the duty of keeping commitments; that it's not at all your fault if the other person assumed commitments you didn't intend to make but didn't disabuse them of. Don't be That Guy. [Amen, and amen.]

can i get this tattooed on my ex-i was hoping you'd pick that up by osmosis-girlfriend? pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?

[mistdog.livejournal.com]

5. There are few things you can do on this planet more worthwhile, more wholesome, more important to your needs as a human being, your country's needs, and your planet's needs, than loving other people. As many of 'em as possible. [Hmm. I have to think about this. I'm not sure quantity of people is important, at least not pure quantity, as opposed to, say, quantity relative to the amount of social energy one has, or something.]

It doesn't say that quantity is the only thing that's important. I think of it as loving-kindness rather than loving, but other than that it seems about right. Except that I don't believe my "country" has any needs. Countries are just lines drawn on a map; entirely artificial and not deserving of love.

6. The essence of integrity is setting other peoples' expectations correctly -- aka making commitments -- and then living up to those expectations. [I think I see integrity as a thing fairly independent of other people's expectations of me, but I also see honoring my commitments -- and not overcommitting -- as an element of integrity, so this is another one to ponder.]

I'm with you on this; it's a bad definition of integrity, because it doesn't allow for personal integrity. If you do something that screws somebody over, even if nobody ever finds out about it, it still damages your integrity. Moral integrity isn't just about "keeping up appearances". It's a personal (and vital) thing.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with number seven at all. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. It IS person A's fault if person B assumed committments about person A that person A never actively asked for/communicated zie wanted? How the hell's that work? Didn't abuse them of? What if you never realised they'd made all these assumptions in the first place? Since when has making assumptions been an okay thing to do, rather tham communicating?

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Where my mind goes with that is when it's reasonable to expect that your new partner (for example) is expecting something that's a cultural given -- say, monogamy, or living together after a certain amount of time -- and you don't bring it up, don't have a conversation about the fact that you don't want that, and you think that lets you off the hook for the pain they'll feel when they discover you want to live alone and be poly for the rest of your life.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

So, as you say, monogamy is a cultural given - why should that mean that if I were to get involved with someone that I'd have to discuss with them that I'd not, infact, want to suddenly become monogamous? Why would I ever even think I'd need to state that explicitly? If it's just that it's a cultural given, if that mattered one bit to me, why would I not already be monogamous?

*shrugs* I suppose I just disagree, in that case. I don't think that it's ever reasonable that people make assumptions about their relationships with others, not even based on whatever is a cultural given, without discussing those expectations, and I refuse to be copable to anyone else's unvoiced expectations of me.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

All I'm saying is that I think *both* people are responsible for discussing things, not just the other party.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

If something's an issue for Person A, and not for Person B, how can Person B be held responsible for knowing it's an issue that needs discussing if Person A's never said anything about it? I don't get how that can be expected, unless people assume a level of mind-reading and/or empathy not all people are capable of.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

What I'm saying is that there are times when you (generic) may suspect that something's an issue, and avoid bringing it up because (a) you may not like the answer, and (b) then later you can say "We didn't talk about this, so how was I to know?" In that case, I think you (still generic) bear some responsibility for the non-communication.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

If it's a matter of a person in good faith failing to realize there's an issue, sure, that person isn't at fault, though, depending on the circumstances, people might still be justified in being suspicious (or "certain", not merely "suspicious").

There are a fair number of people who use the fact that something hasn't been explicitly said as an excuse.

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

And here I drag in poor old Mrs. Parker again: "And yet, somehow, one's deeper respect must always go to the [person] who stops just this side of doing those things that no one has a better right to do."

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Lovely! As I become more and more a grown-up (in a good way) that's one of the ways I tell I've matured: when there are things I have every right to do, but I don't do them if they're going to hurt my loved ones.

[leduck.livejournal.com]

Do you mind if I link to this post? I'm also not entirely sure I agree with all of this, but there are a few parts that I think are brilliant.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Sure! Anyone is always welcome to link to my posts.

[mikz.livejournal.com]

Yep, those certainly are the sorts of things karenbynight would say!

So I'm going through my friend-of list and trying to work out who everybody is. You look familiar, but I have difficulty connecting faces and names to people. Have we met?

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Yep. I've been to a couple of gatherings you've attended, and I was at brian1789's big party, which I am almost sure you were at. I also visited your house a couple of times, but if I recall correctly, you weren't there.

[mikz.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info, even though I'm still not making the connection. Next time I have the pleasure of sharing space with you, please introduce yourself and remind me of this conversation. =)

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Quite all right. I'll try to remember.

[bratman.livejournal.com]

3. New relationship energy is icing. Love is bread. Both are tasty.

So *that's* why I'm on such a sugar buzz.