What a swell party this isn't

[serene]

Scene: party Saturday night, which I only attended in trophy-wife capacity (cute-poet-chick's college friend's birthday)

Montessori Teacher who looks like Garry Shandling and says things like "We traveled through Egypt, and everyone does laundry by hand. Lots of people earn their living doing laundry for others. It's a social thing for women to do it. So if they had washing machines, it would hurt their economy."

Me, after about an hour of ignoring his idiocy and chuckling lightly at his stupid jokes: "So, you have three teenaged daughters? Wow."

Garry Shandling: "Yeah. I'm the only guy in a house full of girls. So I have to keep remembering to think down to their level."

Me: "Um, excuse me. *Down*?"

GS: "You know what I mean. Guys think on one level, and girls on another."

Me: "Oh. And it's *down* a level? *Down*?"

GS: *sputter* "You know what I mean."

Cute-poet-chick, sotto voce: "Doesn't he realize he's sitting at a table with a bunch of women who are bigger than he is?"

Me, to GS: "Hey, that's right. I could totally kick your ass."

Me, to cute-poet-chick: "Here, honey, hold my jacket."

Grrrrrr.

Comments

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

How ironic that you should use racism and sexism in your attack on sexism, not matter how justified the reason for the attack.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

How novel that members of the dominant class can't tell the difference between challenging the dominant paradigm and racism/sexism. *yawn*

Some examples of what I'm talking about, though I don't know why I bother: If a person, let's say they're African-American or Mexican or poor or Native American or... whatever, tells me that my remarks on X topic show that I have a class and/or race bias, and they feel justified in ignoring me because of that, my response will be to listen, examine, and learn where my mistake was. They are not being racist/classist in pointing out the oppression they live with every day to a person who, in comparison, has swum in a sea of privilege all her life.

If a woman tells you that she was treated in a sexist fashion, you have any number of choices of responses. Attempting to set the tone of the dialog or ignoring the fact that she knows when she's encountered sexism and is justifiably angry is one of them. Telling her that she should Just Be Nice and engage the obviously well meaning gentleman to find out *why* he just insulted her is another. Shutting up and realizing that poking at members of the dominant class is qualitatively different from *being* a member of the dominant class and using the identical language is yet another. Three guesses which ones I find dismissable without any qualms at all.

dismiss this

[torquemada.livejournal.com]

So let me get this straight - because I'm a white male, I cannot possibly understand what it's like to be oppressed, stereotyped, or discriminated against?

Because, you see, that's what you're doing.

Also, I may be white and male but I am most certainly not a member of a dominant class, as I am not rich. My dominant white maleness has spent most of the last year unemployed as a result of a collapsed economy and affirmative action.

Re: dismiss this

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Another fun hit in the classism Hit Parade: I don't believe I'm personally benefitting from my Privilege, therefore it

(a) doesn't exist
(b) doesn't inform my views
(c) isn't worthy of examination
(d) all of the above

[torquemada.livejournal.com]

So your responce to your perception of my (and, in your world view, everyone's who doesn't agree with you, I expect) classism and racism is to prepetuate classism and racism? I'm inclined to wonder whether you're projecting your own bias.

My answer, incidentally, is (e) None of the Above, but I don't think you're capable of understanding that, not being a white male who's had to deal with two and a half decades of reverse discrimination on every level, from personal to academic to professional.

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

From what I understand, she's using the anthropological or sociological definitions of racism and classism. In those definitions, reverse discrimination cannot exist. The definitions preclude the possibility.

Definitions are extremely important when dealing with those issues. What I intuitively think of as sexism may not be what the rest of the people in the conversation are thinking of.

[moderngypsy.livejournal.com]

Oh. My. Freaking. Gawd.

Whine, whine, whine. My life sucks and I'm not rich so therefore class/race/sex privilege doesn't exist. Blah, blah, REVERSE RACISM blah!

Pardon me, but bullshit.

Chances are, you've never been harassed on the street because your shirt is a little tighter than most. Or you've never been denied housing/employment because you're just a little too white. People don't cross the street when they see you coming with a pack of your albeit-not-rich friends, because they inherently fear that you'll mug them or get your white all over them. You, once you procure a job, don't have to work twice as hard to get half as far, for eighty cents on the dollar that your female co-workers do.

You can walk down the street at night without the fear of rape -- or, for that matter, date someone new without worrying that he's going to put rohypnol in your drink when you aren't looking. People haven't dismissed your opinions because you're female and therefore don't know anything.

People who are unaware of their own privilege do not, in my not-so-humble opinion, have a right to wallow in every bad thing that ever happened to them (which happens to everyone, even the dominant social class/sex/race/etc...) and instead of taking personal responsibility for their own lives, blame it on being the "persecuted white guy".

My heart bleeds for you.

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

If a woman tells you that she was treated in a sexist fashion, you have any number of choices of responses. Attempting to set the tone of the dialog or ignoring the fact that she knows when she's encountered sexism and is justifiably angry is one of them. Telling her that she should Just Be Nice and engage the obviously well meaning gentleman to find out *why* he just insulted her is another. Shutting up and realizing that poking at members of the dominant class is qualitatively different from *being* a member of the dominant class and using the identical language is yet another. Three guesses which ones I find dismissable without any qualms at all.

I think you make an understandable mistake when you assume that my only reaction to the original post was disinterest, or whatever. Understandable because it appared to me that their responses were sufficiently obnoxious as to be obviously so, rendering any comment I might make redundant to the opinion of anyone I'd want to even bother considering. Frankly, both of the two louts involved deserved some ass-kicking, and I am glad that you applied it. Thank you.

No, quite frankly, my single complaint was only with your use of derogatory, negative-connoting class-identifiers, whether they be towards dominant or undominant classes, to the extent that the use of those terms is insufficiently surgical in making a precise point, and paint all members of the group you deride. Had I read your message as being derisive towards the individuals alone, I would have said not a single word, simply applauded. But no, you used language and tone (to my ear) which attacked all members of a class. You couldn't call them a lout or a fuckhead, you head to make their fuckheadedness a property of a race and a gender.

That's wrong where I come from.

You piss me off on a pretty regular basis, and I appreciate that. You make me think.

But still, I think you're wrong here. I don't think that sexual or racial epiteths, whether couched in formalisms "ho-mo-sexual" (in that drawn out town) or obscenties ("faggot"), whether directed at a dominant class ("straight") or a victimized one ("bisexual"), are right. It's not the spelling of the word that makes the oppression, its the loading and conjoining of a negative connotation with all members of the group of people that does.

In plain English: I strenuously disavow any association with the opinions of the two people you've painted me as being with, and I object. You paint me with shit, I'm gonna complain.

I doubt there's much more to say, we obviously disagree about this.

[slinkr.livejournal.com]

I'm with Joe on this one. You made it really clear why you were justifiably angry about sexism. But when I read your response to the first post by breckan, my first reaction was "how do you know he's white?" It confused me because I didn't think you'd make assumptions about someone's race, so I figured maybe you knew him or something.

But I still couldn't figure out what race had to do with it. Are you more tolerant of sexism when it comes from guys who are not white? I can understand if your annoyance at the teacher was compounded by his having the misfortune to look like Garry Shandling. But would your response to breckan have been different if he wasn't white, or if he was a guy whose race you didn't know?

racism/sexism

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

hm. i am not very comfortable with this, because it implies that racism/sexism can't be committed by a member of a minority group. which i don't think is true, because i have very definitely seen it. unless you define racism so narrowly that being a member of the minority group automatically excludes you because you're ostensibly not in a position of power. and you define "position of power" so narrowly that it only recognizes caucasian males in that position.

that's not how i like to define those words, and i can't say i find it very meaningful to my life and my observations.

i think racism/sexism is much more pervasive than that, and position of power comes in lots of smaller chunks.

and is it by definition apologism if one wants to reserve judgment? (since breckan is on your friends list, you'd presumably know him way better than i of course, but it's possibly worth thinking about, especially since he's protesting it -- your hypothetical women isn't the only one who's protests can be dismissed, and is that the best option?)

and i think i have more options than your three. i have encountered women who saw sexism against them where i really, truly, after much consideration, saw none whatsoever. and i've seen women be terribly sexist themselves without even noticing that they initiated the sexist exchanges. heck, throughout my life í've probably gotten overall more shit from women in ways i consider sexist than from men.

just pondering :)

[(Anonymous)]

Is that you in your icon? You're really cute. :)

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

Yep, that's me. rampling took the photo it was cropped from, and did a beautiful job.