(no subject)

[serene]

So I followed a link in a locked post to the Open-source Boob Project, and here's how my thinking went:

1) Wonder if I should post to my friendslist "Yes, you may".

2) Well, but should I friends-lock it?

3) Well, but then I should really remove anyone from my friendslist that I don't want touching my boobs.

4) Well, no, because I can say no to them. But wouldn't it be funny to just post an open post saying "If I drop you from my friendslist in the next day or so, it's because I don't want you touching my boobs"?

Anyway, Yes, you can. Ask, that is. I'm likely to say "You can touch my boobs; it's no big deal."

Comments

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

I would really be wondering what new friendslist technology LJ was about to roll out.

[algor-langeaux.livejournal.com]

Don't forget... turnabout is fair play...

[catrinaz.livejournal.com]

the "yes, you may" is really referring to the asking, anyway, right? that's how i took it.

thanks for the link.

[hnybny.livejournal.com]

Ahh, that's what those buttons meant at Arisia. I shall definitely keep an eye out next year :-)

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

Aw, BOOGERSNOTS, those buttons were ALREADY at Arisia? I am very, very glad I was in staff den food prep all day.

I sincerely hope they won't be back next year.

[custardfairy.livejournal.com]

I have the button.

Yes, you may.

the Open-source Boob Project

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i have some _really_ mixed reactions to that post. the ferret guy creeps me out, and the thing reminded me first and foremost of harlan ellison groping connie willis and the resultant quiet movement to make cons safer for women, and i had to overcome that first before i could think about the proposition more sensibly.

the main conflicting thoughts i have are:

a) do we really need more men touching women in semi-sexual ways at non-sexual events? and more fetishizing of boobs? the idea that women end up wearing buttons to make asking about boob-touching not ok repels me so strongly, i don't even have good words for that without descending into profanity. while it may all be sunshine and rainbows for those guys who get to cop a feel, it creates a hostile environment for women who do not wish to be around groping men because they've had their goddamned share of it already.

b) a lot of people are touch-starved, and it would be nice if touch didn't carry such strong sexual messages, and if people could feel more free around touch even if it were mildly sexual. i am all for cuddle piles, and for straight-guy hugs, and for being affectionate with people one meets at an off-line gathering after knowing them for some time online.

i don't like that it's called "the open-source boob project". there is a lot of justification from other people after the initial post -- that it wasn't just about boobs and it wasn't just women being touched. ok, but why the hell isn't it called the "open-source touch project" or the "open-source body project" then? why the emphasis on boobs? is that just the skeevy ferret guy's perspective?

if i went to cons these days i'd probably stay far away from it, even though i am not inherently opposed to sharing some affectionate touch with relative strangers.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[hel]

Well, it was said in the post, there were women touching women. And said in the comments, there were men being touched as well. Also, there is an edit to the post, saying that after the initial bit, no one not wearing one or the other button was asked at all, for reasons of avoiding creepiness, so that takes care, I think, of the people who aren't interested being involved aspect. I suspect it's called the open source boob project because breasts are socially seen as an especially desirable yet prohibited object, and so they were what the project started with.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

women touching women non-sexually makes men touching women sexually ok? women touching women magically removes peer pressure? men being touched (carefully NOT anywhere sexual, because that would be "dangerous", since "little elvis" would not control himself -- oh my eyes, they're rolling) is the same as touching women's breasts how?

the more i've gone back and re-read the original post, the more i am creeped out about the whole "it was magical, bambi danced and butterflies frolicked" attitude that does not, for a single moment, acknowledge that this sort of thing comes with mountains of baggage. i mean, it's ok to feel the magic while one is there; i've been in such situations. but it's long past that day now, and it's become a "project". in the comments people who state that their boundaries don't enjoy groping by strangers are clearly considered unenlightened prudes, and stuff like what's allegedly "healthy" gets thrown around with abandon.

what is it, he's just read heinlein, and is emboldened to explore brave new social avenues? here's news for men like him: it's not brave and new for men to want to touch random women's boobs in public. it's not new for women to have men touch them in public. it's old and tired. it's objectifying. same old same old "men desire, women provide sex". women did it too while men watched? oh gosh, hot-bi-babe fantasies fulfilled. and the cherry on top: the way he tells it, there's but one motivation for the women, a desire for attention. (i am not casting aspersions on them, only on him, since he is the narrator of that particular story).

i am sorry, but women's breasts are not magical parts for healing con geeks' sex starvation. and this ferrett character who's apparently the spokesperson for this amazing movement for our new age in which sexism is magically dead doesn't even acknowledge, or *fuck*, REALIZE, that here be dragons.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[glossolalia.livejournal.com]

WORD. I'm a well-known pervert among my set, but hot damn! do I ever agree with you here.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[hel]

Holy goddess, my first comment that's too long! Yay, I've achieved new LJ heights! So, my comment is in two parts.

You seem quite upset, and I am sorry for whatever part my comment played in it. I'll try and explain myself better.

My point with regards to women touching women was that your point there seemed to be 'the touching is all very heterosexual', which was not my impression. I got the impression that regardless of gender, the touching was roughly the same mixture of appreciation and sexuality. And, the only place men specifically weren't touched was the genitals, and women's genitals weren't touched either.

The peer pressure is a good point, but, everyone has to live with peer pressure in a million ways everywhere every day, including with regards to sex. In every interaction, it's present. I don't think making it explicit and less mystified and taboo is bad. Human beings have feelings, including sexual ones. Trying to say otherwise is unrealistic and impractical. Accepting biological realities and trying to alter, better, social constructs with regards to them is a lofty goal in my opinion.

I suspect that while you're reading the same words I am in the original post, you're not reading the same thing. I'd be curious as to where you're seeing things differently, I may well be missing something, it's certainly happened before.

For one thing, I saw quite a bit of acknowledgment, in the post and especially in the comments, that yes, here there be dragons, and I saw quite a bit of trying to address that. But, they clearly did feel something like magic, and, it seems, other people can see how it could be magic, and want to try and create that for themselves. I can certainly see how it could be amazing. I often feel physically unattractive, because I certainly don't meet societal standards for beauty, and having something that told me yes, people found me attractive would be great. Sure, it'd be ideal if society didn't tell me I'm unattractive, but it does, and I don't see it stopping any time soon, no matter how much work is done. So, I'd like things that helped me deal with that, and for me, I can see that this really could be such a thing. I can't always give myself all the affirmation I need, so, at those times, if I don't get it externally, I just won't have it. I'd rather have it externally than not at all.

As another point where I don't think we're reading the same thing, ferret does not in what I read 'clearly consider unenlightened prudes those who didn't want to take part'. He states repeatedly in the comments things such as 'you don't want to take part, don't, it's cool.', with further comments which I read as 'we just want people who this speaks to get a chance to take part'. Also, I see numerous comments from both ferret and others against those who are giving people shit about not wanting to take part, and against those who're giving those who did take part shit. So, there's clear pressure to be respectful all around, in what I read.

For yet another, while I see a number of people saying how they've found affirmation and personal growth through this or similar ways to express sexuality while avoiding some degree of the common social dangers of such, I don't see anyone saying that it will work like that for everyone, and if it doesn't, you're unhealthy.

No, it's not new for men to want to touch women's breasts in public. It's as old as the human sex drive. What is new is making it explicit, and putting a social stigma to it (because they did form a small sub culture, I'd say, from a sociological perspective), whereby the men are expected to ASK, the women have absolute power to refuse, and the men are expected to gracefully accept refusal.

Personally, as a woman who likes other women's breast, I'm rather insulted that you'd assume the women who touched other women's breasts did it for the sake of the HBB fantasies of the men present. Maybe they just WANTED to, and appreciated the chance to be able to Just Ask. I know I've gone half insane at times, wondering if some woman I was attracted to would be open to being approached in any way, and wishing there was some way I could tell, or at least know if I could ask without giving offense.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[hel]

(Continued from above)

I read the entry as ferret ascribing the same motives to all parties, touching and touched. Yes, attention, but more so, connection, appreciation and recognition of it, and a search for some new paradigm of interaction for age old acts.

Breasts are awesome, to those who are sexually aroused by them. (Asses are equally awesome, and I was thrilled to read there was ass grabbing of both genders as well!) If people are willing to CONSIDER sharing themselves with those who find them attractive (it's said repeatedly that just cos one was willing to be asked didn't mean one had to say yes), then how is it bad to connect those who are willing to share, with whose who want to take part?

Yes, sexism exists, women's breasts are objectified, but, how else can it be overcome if not by exploring new avenues of expressing the human urges that aren't going away any time soon? Yes, sexism exists, and any new avenue explored will likely be tainted by sexism, especially initially, but does that mean one shouldn't explore new avenues?

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

women touching women non-sexually

I'm just curious--feel free not to answer--but why do you presume that all of the woman-touching-woman was non-sexual?

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

You qrote:

i am sorry, but women's breasts are not magical parts for healing con geeks' sex starvation. and this ferrett character who's apparently the spokesperson for this amazing movement for our new age in which sexism is magically dead doesn't even acknowledge, or *fuck*, REALIZE, that here be dragons.

YES! And thank you kindly.

I might be up for it if this were a deal where I get to walk up to random guyz and ask to grab their cocks, and talk about how that's part of my healing and empowerment to get random access to their bodies. Strangely, that doesn't seem to be something ferrett would be all right with.

I'm really upset by his post, he has managed to hit darn near every space on the sexism bingo card that reduces women to objects and providers of a thing called sex while men are agents who do things and make choices. This makes me sad.

Because I do like some of the more free swinging kinds of touch and gatherings where that can happen. But I don't do that or go there until I've built a structure in which there can be meaningful consent and meaningful yeses and noes. (And I've helped build one place where that does happen and I'm working on another now.) But what ferrett is talking about... isn't that at least not how I'm reading it.

Damn. I'd like that happy fun free swinging world. But it won't manifest till we deal with sexism. I wish we could make sexism vanish by pretending it has vanished, but that strategy doesn't seem to be working for anyone I know.

And serene, this is my reaction to ferret's post. I hope I am clear it's about his post and not about you. I don't want to be telling you what to do with your body, cos it doesn't beling to me. (I was there for that day in third grade...)

I want you to be able to do whatever you want with your body, same as I can do whatever I want with mine. But ferret's context... yeeech. I hadta say something.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

he more i've gone back and re-read the original post, the more i am creeped out about the whole "it was magical, bambi danced and butterflies frolicked" attitude that does not, for a single moment, acknowledge that this sort of thing comes with mountains of baggage.

A very big ditto.

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

Quotes:

Beautiful, from fengi: "When it comes to my breasts, I'm proprietary software, asshole. My chest is the fucking Apple Computer of limited licensing for outside applications." (http://fengi.livejournal.com/716691.html)

Hideous, from theferrett: "But that also involves an interview process, and the attitude that your body is a vested space that is, by nature, exclusive. That's fine. But that doesn't mean it's the only way to be, or that it's always healthy." (http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1087686.html?thread=54671302#t54671302)

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[pyrzqxgl.livejournal.com]

*applause*

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[pogodragon.livejournal.com]

I think that had the post been by anyone other than The Ferrett I would have felt happier about it. Still not unconflicted, but happier. I'm with you, he gives me the mighty creeps. I used to read his LJ but gave up a while ago because of ... something I no longer remember, but it gave me the shudders.

My initial reaction was 'of course I'd wear one of the green buttons', but on thinking about it, from the tone of Ferrets post I'd stick to a 'free hugs' t-shirt instead. I'm not naiive, even that can be sexual depending on the person doing the hugging, but breasts are so much more loaded.

And gah, I need to think more on this and not clutter up serenejournal's page.

(People I know can always ask and I'm likely to say 'of course, no big deal', making that offer to a convention population in general, not so comfortable with that)

Re: the Open-source Boob Project

[brownbetty]

Popping in via I don't remember the link, but the part that bothers me most is not the 'boob', but the 'open source' bit. I mean, Open Source is an approach to coding where everyone is free to see the code, edit it, improve on it, and distribute it, (sometimes with some rights, like attribution, explicitly reserved.) How does this apply to my boobs!? People should feel free to offer critiques of my boobs? Um, no.

I heartily agree

[sistercoyote.livejournal.com]

People should feel free to offer critiques of my boobs? Um, no.

It's not like they don't anyway. I like to wear low-cut tops because I get hot, not to show off my cleavage, but even when I'm in a shirt that buttons up to my chin people still feel free to critique my boobs. And the rest of my body, for that matter.

[firecat]

I sure hope this "project" doesn't turn up at NAAFA.

[oakdragon.livejournal.com]

I had one thought.

Seeing how theferret had to clarify the original situation and relate that the person who first asked to touch was a woman (apparently the assumption was that it was a man who had asked), and that the woman who asked the woman in costume was a friend of said woman, I wonder if the "project" would have been perceived differently if one of the women in the founding group had posted the journal entry.

Giving your question careful consideration

[sistercoyote.livejournal.com]

If she had used similar language to/the exact same language as theferret, I doubt my reaction would have changed much. It's the suggestion that anyone, anywhere, should be able to question my right to my bodily integrity because it will make the world a happier healthier place with butterflies and Bambi and bunnies ejaculating rainbows that got my hackles up, I think.

If, on the other hand, one of those two girls (or even theferret himself) had said something along the lines of: "At the con, we were talking with friends and the subject of boobs came up. I said they could touch mine, and then my friend came along and they asked her and she said 'sure,' and the whole thing ended up being kind of surreal and fun for the group," then my reaction would have been YKIOK. I'd rather not have to see anyone fondling someone else's boobs at a con or other public event (unless it's in a consensual situation for all involved), but in the context of a group of friends at a convention it wouldn't even reach my weirdness top ten.*

Re: Giving your question careful consideration

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Hi there,

you wrote: It's the suggestion that anyone, anywhere, should be able to question my right to my bodily integrity because it will make the world a happier healthier place with butterflies and Bambi and bunnies ejaculating rainbows that got my hackles up, I think.

YES! This is what I was getting at above. I didn't get the chance to reply to folks earlier because I was at work and umm... working, but this is exactly the issue. My bodily integrity and yours and yours and yours come first. All the rest of that stuff comes afterward, and if that's something that makes some folks sad or upset, then they might want to look at their senses of entitlement a little and see if there's something to examine there.

I can't believe I still have to argue this point in 2008, but in situations like ferrett's post, I do have to. Thanks for the comments above, and may I friend you?

Re: Giving your question careful consideration

[linenoise.livejournal.com]

That first bit is where I eventually came to rest, as well. If it had just been "there was this thing at this con, and here's how it went, and it was really cool..." then I think that there would've been one *tenth* the drama, if that.

It's the bit about calling it a Project, and using all this language that sets it up to be a movement that turns it into a skeevy thing. Because then it's not just an isolated incident that happened, it's something that some subset of people are going to try to make happen *again*.

If it was just one event, then I think all but the most strident objectors would've just said "you're weird" and wandered off again. But if people are trying to make a movement out of it, it really forces people to raise all the issues of consent and peer pressure and normative behavior and all the other completely pertinent objections.

Personally, I think, had I been there, I would've gleefully participated. I think that now, should I encounter it somewhere, I'll quietly decline, and be grateful that I'm not really the target audience, so nobody's gonna *care* if I quietly decline.